Technology for As-Builts

[Rookie65]

No, because Matterport will show the windows. I just use Hover if I have to show the exterior of an existing house. It's one or the other, depending on what the job is. Or a client may do a Hover report and send it to me to get exterior dimensions for their project. 

 

[ValleyGuy]

I just down loaded Chief's new As-Built app on my iPad Pro and used the LiDar scan tool.  It may not be a one tool fixes everything, but it is definitely going to be a huge game changer in how I obtain as-built information. 

 

Check out the thread in the "Sales Related Questions" to see what CA's new app made in under 10 min 

[SHCanada2]

5 hours ago, ValleyGuy said:

I just down loaded Chief's new As-Built app on my iPad Pro and used the LiDar scan tool.  It may not be a one tool fixes everything, but it is definitely going to be a huge game changer in how I obtain as-built information.

i've tried it a few times, and compared it to laser and to cubicasa.  I do mostly basements, and it has trouble distinguishing bulkheads (sometimes thinks they are walls) and cantilevers where a 12" wall portion goes across the top.  I'd be curious to hear your feedback. It uses the apple roomplan API, so I think it may be apple's limitations as opposed to CA

 

It's nice though as it brings in windows and doors, so the elevations are less work, but based on my testing you would still need to take laser measurements for your area of interest

 

 

[ValleyGuy]

3 hours ago, SHCanada2 said:

i've tried it a few times, and compared it to laser and to cubicasa.  I do mostly basements, and it has trouble distinguishing bulkheads (sometimes thinks they are walls) and cantilevers where a 12" wall portion goes across the top.  I'd be curious to hear your feedback. It uses the apple roomplan API, so I think it may be apple's limitations as opposed to CA

 

It's nice though as it brings in windows and doors, so the elevations are less work, but based on my testing you would still need to take laser measurements for your area of interest

 

 

 

Yes I would agree that missing or not distinguishing items such as soffits, railings, half walls etc is not CA and is fully the LiDAR's ability. In another app, I have had it pick up the kitchen island sink depression (in the correct spot) but show the island counter top overhang as a solid block to the floor. Two different apps with the same LiDAR results - I'm sure that it's an LiDAR thing. I have found that it has always been very reliable picking up walls and openings, and for that reason, I can overlook not picking up the kitchen soffits.

 

It looks like Chief has done a great job in making the 3D model into a 2D plan view, as well as removing the clutter and furniture.

 

I just loaded it this morning, shot the house with it, turned on the interior dimensions and posted the results. Literally no edits just to see the accuracy. If you look at the comparison of the two (in the other thread under Sales Related Questions) you will see that the LiDAR CA generated dimensions are very close to the actual laser measured ones that I put in yellow earlier in the thread. This app probably won't instil enough confidence to just scan and walk away for me, as I'm a 'measure twice' kind of drafter, but it sure will remove any drawing on site, plus be a much faster way to adjust the walls to the correct dimensions. I think that Chief did a great job to make it 'Draft Person Friendly' so far. I'll sit down with it soon to learn what it really has under the hood for options, hopefully there are some good nuggets yet to find.

[SHCanada2]

20 hours ago, ValleyGuy said:

sure will remove any drawing on site, plus be a much faster way to adjust the walls to the correct dimensions

 

I'm curious as to how this will be done. today when I take dimensions, I will need to correct interior dimensions that i took to reflect the building outer walls. In this respect, I dont want to accidentally adjust a wall in the app and move the exterior wall(the CA app gives you the ability to put in reference measurements, but that is static. You seem to be saying you will correct actual wall dimensions in the app). In CA you can easily see this and control it. Running around with a tablet and adjusting, I would think would be prone to errors. I think in my ideal workflow, I would go scan, download to CA, print it out and go measure each room, and then reconcile in CA. 

 

It's like ordering food at a restaurant, it used to be the server would write down the order. Now they bring a tablet and are constantly asking sorry what did you say you wanted with that...because they have to sit there navigating the menus and drop downs on the tablet.  Maybe I'm wrong and you can get the efficiency in the tablet by fixing the walls in the app. It was an excercise in frustration when I used to try and do it with the measureon app. So much that I gave up and now just draw the plan in CA onsite on my laptop (after sketching out the layout on paper).

 

I asked Ca to see if they could provide us a point cloud as well. If they did then we could reconcile where the app made an incorrect decision(in aligning walls).

 

So yeah I'm curious if you will find it to be more efficient to use the app, take some control measurements, and then download to CA and finish fixing the plan. Or if you will fix everything in the app by taking more manual dimensions and moving the walls around in the app

 

 

and curious, where are you noting bulkhead AFF, and dimensions?

Edited Saturday at 08:06 PM by SHCanada2

[ValleyGuy]

4 hours ago, SHCanada2 said:

 

I'm curious as to how this will be done. today when I take dimensions, I will need to correct interior dimensions that i took to reflect the building outer walls. In this respect, I dont want to accidentally adjust a wall in the app and move the exterior wall(the CA app gives you the ability to put in reference measurements, but that is static. You seem to be saying you will correct actual wall dimensions in the app). In CA you can easily see this and control it. Running around with a tablet and adjusting, I would think would be prone to errors. I think in my ideal workflow, I would go scan, download to CA, print it out and go measure each room, and then reconcile in CA. 

 

It's like ordering food at a restaurant, it used to be the server would write down the order. Now they bring a tablet and are constantly asking sorry what did you say you wanted with that...because they have to sit there navigating the menus and drop downs on the tablet.  Maybe I'm wrong and you can get the efficiency in the tablet by fixing the walls in the app. It was an excercise in frustration when I used to try and do it with the measureon app. So much that I gave up and now just draw the plan in CA onsite on my laptop (after sketching out the layout on paper).

 

I asked Ca to see if they could provide us a point cloud as well. If they did then we could reconcile where the app made an incorrect decision(in aligning walls).

 

So yeah I'm curious if you will find it to be more efficient to use the app, take some control measurements, and then download to CA and finish fixing the plan. Or if you will fix everything in the app by taking more manual dimensions and moving the walls around in the app

 

 

and curious, where are you noting bulkhead AFF, and dimensions?

 

So playing around on the CA As-Built app here is what I found.

The walls seem to be easily moved due to the controls that Chief has installed. For example, a vertical wall can only move left or right on the page. A horizontal wall can only go up or down on the page. I didn't test any diagonal walls, but from the Q&A webinar answer, they will respond in a similar fashion. Curved walls... I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you. Once a wall is selected, it will have dimensions already attached, or temporary ones will appear. Only the highlighted wall will move (no directional pop up like in Premier). So you either lengthen or shorten the attached dimension, the dimension is anchored and the highlighted wall is what will move. I didn't find any waitress with an iPad issues at all. This part of the app seems to be sound. Again, this app has some bugs with drawing or moving a free end (non attached) wall which I'm sure they are working on. Once they get that little glitch ironed out, I'm pretty sure that nudging walls will be done right on the app on site without worry.

 

A nice touch is how Chief has the windows and doors set up. The individual item has an info panel to manually input over ride values (or easily double check values).

And the wall containing the opening also pops up the dimensions from both edges to the next perpendicular wall so you can adjust on the fly.

 

Another thing that I found; because I don't like to use decimal points, the app dimensions will round up/down to the inch. And I'm ok with that. Most everything that I do has varying degrees of accuracy depending on the situation. And sometimes when measuring a 250 year old house, accuracy is a luxury beyond reach...

 

Here's what I hope to accomplish...

As I chose a desk top and iPad over a laptop, I am trying to use what I do have on-site to not make multiple trips between the office and the site.
Sometimes multiple customer meetings are hard to schedule, so I want to make the most of the time that I'm there. I find that I spend a lot less time getting decisions made by sketching in front of the customer. Way faster than using Chief and preparing a layout to email. I hope to also have time to sketch ideas on-site.

I expect to measure the house to some degree. Again, some instances need very high accuracy, and others not so much, I may only rely on the LiDAR results for those specific areas.

I also expect to have to make notes and draw in items that current tech isn't capable of yet. I should have stated above that this CA app will remove a lot of what I currently draw on-site.

 

Here's the logistics that I'm thinking of...
LiDAR isn't the full package yet no matter how good Chief is, there are things that it just doesn't do yet. Likewise, I don't think the CA As-Built app is a full one stop shop yet either (it was only just released!). So I plan to use the Morpholio Trace app in conjunction with CA's app. I believe it was designed with the iPad to be it's main hardware too so it works well on the iPad. I'm thinking that this package will serve as my on-site CA As-Built back up, mark up, red line, customer detail sketch book, and video camera - all in one.

- CA Back-Up:  I'll just screen shot the initial CA LiDAR dimensioned plan and keep it in photos. Just in case I need to compare any suspected unauthorized wall movements.
- Red Line: More like CA app lidar dimension discrepancy check. Let's be honest, we have to feel comfortable that the LiDAR measurements are close enough to reality. For this, I plan to input the saved CA screen shot photo in to Morpholio Trace as the base layer. Then I can lay a trace layer over top and start confirming the room measurements. Circle in red and 'pencil' in correct room measurements as needed.

- Split screen the iPad: CA app / Morpholio Trace app. Adjust the CA app walls using the M.Trace red lined dimension values.
- Now confirm window / door measurements if wanted, placement, and swing direction in the CA plan. (Door types that are different than Hinged can be drawn in M.Trace.)
- Screen Shot the newly modified CA floor plan again. 

- Reload the new screen shot photo into M.Trace 
- Mark Up: in the new reloaded M. Trace app. Place layers of trace paper down to draw in the things that LiDAR doesn't pick up (soffits, stair wells, railings, beams, ...), the items CA decided to remove from the 2D plan (cabinets, built-ins, appliances, plumbing, fireplace,...), and all the other items of interest: notes, the types of doors, configuration of windows, floor patterns, patios, exterior steps, electrical, mechanicals, ...

 

So now there should be a very accurately dimensioned floor plan in the CA app with walls and openings, and a very sporty looking floor plan of the as-built complete with all the missing bits in the M.Trace app. 

 

And of course, take some pics and a video or two. Make some mark ups on the pictures in the iPad's Freeform app if needed for things like the roofline, porches, decks,...

 

Now the remodel / addition fun can start with the client. In the M.Trace app, put down more trace paper layers for all the ideas and options. Even draw in upper and lower floor levels or doodle new roofline / dormer options.  

 

By the end, I hope to measure only once, and have it all contained on the iPad, done on-site during the one visit - depending on how big the project is of course. 

[SHCanada2]

1 hour ago, ValleyGuy said:

Then I can lay a trace layer over top and start confirming the room measurements. Circle in red and 'pencil' in correct room measurements as needed.

- Split screen the iPad: CA app / Morpholio Trace app. Adjust the CA app walls using the M.Trace red lined dimension values.

hmm, i dont get this part. why not just adjust the walls in the CA app directly, vs sounds like you are still going to type in the dimensions for each room in the trace app,, then adjust the walls in CA?

 

Are you doing it in the trace app so you have a permanent, unaltered record?  (this is why I do it on paper today...walls can't move on paper)

[ValleyGuy]

4 hours ago, SHCanada2 said:

hmm, i dont get this part. why not just adjust the walls in the CA app directly, vs sounds like you are still going to type in the dimensions for each room in the trace app,, then adjust the walls in CA?

 

Are you doing it in the trace app so you have a permanent, unaltered record?  (this is why I do it on paper today...walls can't move on paper)

Yes, this my reconcile part. I'm not 100% confident enough to not have a back-up that 'can't move'. I'm also not yet convinced that LiDAR can fully flush out the always found different interior wall thicknesses, slight wall jogs, furred portions of walls, and boxed in dead spots that derail the exterior measurements. Plus, some closets are just not LiDAR scan possible. The CA app will also never be able to do "everything" either, it isn't meant to. I'm thinking that 'most' of the floor plan can be drawn and reconciled on-site on the iPad at best. Fine detail information 'written down' will probably always be a constant, to be taken back to the office where more time and/or a more robust program await.

On a side note...
The trace app is quick just using the pencil to write rather than type text boxes. And the portability of a cross body strap on the iPad (encased in a rubber 'kid proof' w/ pencil holder) allows both hands free to measure. This part should go quickly. I'll probably also grab the door and window info while I'm in the room too. I'm thinking that sitting down to move all the necessary walls and confirm the openings in the CA app will be faster doing it all at once on a table top than holding the iPad room to room.

[SHCanada2]

7 hours ago, ValleyGuy said:

I'll probably also grab the door and window info while I'm in the room too

You can see, while scanning, in the CA app when it outlines the windows.  It's one thing I am considering not measuring manually and just using the CA app's determined size and location..at least for the rooms not being renoed.

 

 

 

[ValleyGuy]

15 hours ago, SHCanada2 said:

You can see, while scanning, in the CA app when it outlines the windows.  It's one thing I am considering not measuring manually and just using the CA app's determined size and location..at least for the rooms not being renoed.

 

 

 

I agree with just relying on LiDAR for the rooms not being reno'd. So far the opening size and location accuracy from the scan has been more than acceptable for this purpose, at least for the rooms that aren't on a one or two step height difference. Those ones are just off in the elevation height.