Structural Sizing (Beams, Joists, etc.)

[Richard_Morrison]

Do you realize there are still places in this country where a man can build without government permits? And just think, no one is dieing from collapsing buildings there.

 

Umm, no. Actually they ARE dying in unpermitted work, although not necessarily from structural collapse. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-homeowner-charged-fire-killed-family-20140620-story.html 

[Paramount]

There is nothing in the IRC that states any requirement of who can design what type of building. The IRC does state liability but only as it refers to the Building Official and Building Inspectors.

As far as needing engineering, the IRC states you do not need engineering as long as you can meet the prescriptive requirements of the IRC. You can have a combination of both prescriptive and engineered path to drawing development.

I submitted 1 plan recently in seismic zone D1 using the prescriptive method with no engineering. It was approved 4 days ago.

 

 

IRC provides a code path for certain structures (eg: three stories, duplex, etc) any design not in code needs an structures engineer not to be mistaken with a chemist, building microbiologist, etc) Admin CH 3 states the design has to meet loads either actual or implied if not you need a PE. The designers/architects are going to become more and more liable as we continue passive house trends (PHPP/PHPPUS) where toxins are being sealed in building's at .5 ACH/HR, not the PE structures engineer. CA Law suits are already underway I forgot to bookmark them, especially up in the bay area. 

 

"The IRC does state liability"

Really? Where? I would think that is impossible since liability and contract laws vary from state to state. 

[Paramount]

Umm, no. Actually they ARE dying in unpermitted work, although not necessarily from structural collapse. http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-homeowner-charged-fire-killed-family-20140620-story.html 

 

I think people think they are getting some bargain by moving to rural or where there are no B&S codes, until one day they kill themselves or others like this. Its allowed since they are far attached from high density and for the most part can only harm themselves. It will only get worse as they seek low utility bills and think they can DIY. If the place doesnt collapse or burn it sinks, we repair foundations all the time love it! 

 

Well back to designing to net zero

[DRAWZILLA]

You don't get to make up laws just to suit what you want to do. If you've got a code citation that says an unlicensed person can design three-story buildings, cite it. If not, it's just a bunch of hot air on your part, even if you haven't been caught yet. I don't really care since it's YOUR ass on the line, but if you are designing actual three-story buildings, then you are living on borrowed time, IMO. Have fun! 

 

BTW, here's a sample from the California Architect's Board enforcement actions: "HERMOSA BEACH—The Board issued a two-count citation that included a $4,000 fine to Jonathan Starr, dba Starr Design Group, an unlicensed individual, for alleged violations of BPC 5536(a) (Practice Without License or Holding Self Out as Architect). The action alleged that Starr executed an agreement offering to provide design services for a new three story over basement single-family residence located in Manhattan Beach, California. Starr also executed an agreement offering to provide design services for a new three story over basement single-family residence with attached two-car garage and roof deck located in Hermosa Beach, California. The projects did not satisfy the criteria for an exempt project type as defined in BPC 5537(a), and required a licensed design professional for preparation of plans, drawings, or specifications. Starr paid the fine, satisfying the citation. The citation became final on July 29, 2014."

This is not even close to applying to what I do, I am very legal.

[Paramount]

Just reading about one I'm looking to design-build a model. If the IRC or BO is not restricting heights the HOA is: 2 .5 does not include basements here. As solar sweeps the country needing solar easements we'll all be building one stories. 

 

Well maybe being a good high tech designer is not all that easy and all it's cracked up to be? 

[Paramount]

You don't get to make up laws just to suit what you want to do. If you've got a code citation that says an unlicensed person can design three-story buildings, cite it. If not, it's just a bunch of hot air on your part, even if you haven't been caught yet. I don't really care since it's YOUR ass on the line, but if you are designing actual three-story buildings, then you are living on borrowed time, IMO. Have fun! 

 

BTW, here's a sample from the California Architect's Board enforcement actions: "HERMOSA BEACH—The Board issued a two-count citation that included a $4,000 fine to Jonathan Starr, dba Starr Design Group, an unlicensed individual, for alleged violations of BPC 5536(a) (Practice Without License or Holding Self Out as Architect). The action alleged that Starr executed an agreement offering to provide design services for a new three story over basement single-family residence located in Manhattan Beach, California. Starr also executed an agreement offering to provide design services for a new three story over basement single-family residence with attached two-car garage and roof deck located in Hermosa Beach, California. The projects did not satisfy the criteria for an exempt project type as defined in BPC 5537(a), and required a licensed design professional for preparation of plans, drawings, or specifications. Starr paid the fine, satisfying the citation. The citation became final on July 29, 2014."

This is not even close to applying to what I do, I am very legal.

 

As I said, the designer/Architect has liability for everything outside of stress analysis the PE has. CA will be the first to crack down then it will sweep the nation and already is as the Green and Eco movements prevail. EPA and health code laws will be a big part of it with renewable eco designs some don't understand. There is a push to educate US Architects more in Building Science, like in other parts of the world. The knowledge base requirements are going up. Want to play gotta pay If your a drafter be sure you understand the scope of work you are being hired for and get it documented.  

[Northriver]

IRC provides a code path for certain structures (eg: three stories, duplex, etc) any design not in code needs an structures engineer not to be mistaken with a chemist, building microbiologist, etc) Admin CH 3 states the design has to meet loads either actual or implied if not you need a PE. The designers/architects are going to become more and more liable as we continue passive house trends (PHPP/PHPPUS) where toxins are being sealed in building's at .5 ACH/HR, not the PE structures engineer. CA Law suits are already underway I forgot to bookmark them, especially up in the bay area. 

 

"The IRC does state liability"

Really? Where? I would think that is impossible since liability and contract laws vary from state to state. 

 

I think you did not read my reply correctly. I specifically said Building Officials  and Inspectors. Look at section R104.8.

You are confusing what the IRC vrs what the CA code requirements are along with the UBC requirements.

Designers are not going to get sued because of materials are causing toxins within the home they design. Architects, designers and PE rarely get sued in residential construction as the liability always falls on the general contractors (Builder) and the sub-contractors.

I am quite aware of the difference between a PE and a chemist or microbiologist. I very familiar with Construction Forensics after spending 3 years working for one as a Construction Manager.

It would be beneficial for you to gain more onsite experience with General Contractors who are well established leaders in their field. Relying on the internet is no way to gain the experience and knowledge it takes to completely understand residential construction. There is no substitute for hands on experience and quality time invested in one industry, not jumping from one industry to the next thinking that learning a software program and building a building or two will automatically qualify you as an expert. 

I have been in this business for over 30 years and still learning. I have worked for the two largest home builders in the US to a 50 million dollar single family project east of Seattle. Drawing plans was always a hobby but now that I am retired I just do SF plans as a side gig. I am still involved with the Seattle Master Builders Association as well as Habitat for Humanity.

[Richard_Morrison]

I think you did not read my reply correctly. I specifically said Building Officials  and Inspectors. Look at section R104.8.

This is a section that states that building officials and their subordinates can only be sued in their professional capacity, not as individuals, and shall be defended by the jurisdiction that they represent. So I'm not exactly sure what the point being made here is.

[Paramount]

Well hope noone gets discouraged here, very exciting industry coming up here with renewable energy modeling, etc. I do aircraft/auto Architect design work too, same happen about a decade ago, drafters got pushed out due to higher level technologies and liabilities. Now you can not get hired without a 4-year degree. We want an educated/experienced society and should encourage it. An Engineering degree is not easy, and cost a bundle these days. Last I check buildings is not as high a salary as aerospace.

 

The home building industry is too open a market imo, that is why the average last only what 30 years in the USA and the carbon foot print is what 40% from building's. It's going down, but not from the efforts of designers/drafters. More like ASHRAE, NREL, DOE. If that doesn't take your job 3D prototype will. Cessna just announced a Denali with 3D turbine engine parts (gears mainly). Glad CA has  SLA.  

[parkwest]

We're not designing and building space shuttles here. (And the college degree guys got that wrong on a few occasions) It's time to reduce the costs of building houses, not increase them. What some are suggesting will only increase the costs.

Maybe try a free market approach for a change.

[Richard_Morrison]

It's time to reduce the costs of building houses, not increase them.

Maybe try a free market approach for a change.

You want to reduce building costs? Build smaller houses. Less square footage = less $. If people keep asking for bigger houses, with more amenities, and  simply want to pay less for more, that's not an attitude I can get behind. The average size house in 1950 was 983 S.F., in 1970, it was 1,660 S.F., in 2013, it was 2,679 S.F. At the same time, the average household size has gone down.  And actually, in terms of real dollars, the cost of construction has not varied all that much over the years; on an inflation-adjusted basis, we are already paying a little less for construction than we were in 1973. (https://www.aei.org/publication/todays-new-homes-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-the-living-space-per-person-has-doubled-over-last-40-years/)

[Paramount]

We're not designing and building space shuttles here. (And the college degree guys got that wrong on a few occasions) It's time to reduce the costs of building houses, not increase them. What some are suggesting will only increase the costs.

Maybe try a free market approach for a change.

 

Actually, you are. I bet you'll be shocked to learn the same mechanical properties that home structures see are the exact type of stresses the space shuttle sees only more of it. The physics and chemistry principles are the same too. But you would have had to done both to know that I've been doing corporate structures/HVAC mechanical design to cost trade studies for over three decades, after looking at this industry for about two years now all I have to say is what a mess! We have a saying, chaos equals cash thats why I'm here. 

 

Agree with Richard I'm about ready to go off grid min SF in a sub @ 1200 with smart tiny home spatial designs. Challenging! Dumb HOA city is killing me. 

[parkwest]

Actually, you are. I bet you'll be shocked to learn the same mechanical properties that home structures see are the exact type of stresses the space shuttle sees only more of it. The physics and chemistry principles are the same too. But you would have had to done both to know that I've been doing corporate structures/HVAC mechanical design to cost trade studies for over three decades, after looking at this industry for about two years now all I have to say is what a mess! We have a saying, chaos equals cash thats why I'm here.

Agree with Richard I'm about ready to go off grid min SF in a sub @ 1200 with smart tiny home spatial designs. Challenging! Dumb HOA city is killing me.

I've never seen a house fall out of the sky, land on a runway at 200 mph, pop a chute and have people get out of the house and walk away.

And I sure am glad the human race was able to survive until you were able to come to our rescue. :-)

Richard, how much were permits, impact fees, inspection costs, etc on the average house in 1973?

How much are they today in the Bay Area?

[Northriver]

You want to reduce building costs? Build smaller houses. Less square footage = less $. If people keep asking for bigger houses, with more amenities, and  simply want to pay less for more, that's not an attitude I can get behind. The average size house in 1950 was 983 S.F., in 1970, it was 1,660 S.F., in 2013, it was 2,679 S.F. At the same time, the average household size has gone down.  And actually, in terms of real dollars, the cost of construction has not varied all that much over the years; on an inflation-adjusted basis, we are already paying a little less for construction than we were in 1973. (https://www.aei.org/publication/todays-new-homes-are-1000-square-feet-larger-than-in-1973-and-the-living-space-per-person-has-doubled-over-last-40-years/)

 

Reducing the size of the building does not do anything unless you can decrease land costs. Land costs are the main driver on what is built on it. In areas of high demand land costs are more than construction costs. The only way to combat this situation is to build multi family developments so you can maximize density into a smaller area or allow the expansion of urban development into the sub-urban areas. You live in San Francisco which is a perfect example of what happens when you run out of land to build on in an area of high demand caused by people making 200k + a year. If you owned a lot in SF would you build a 1500 sf house on it. Land costs in 1960 and 1970 where negligible compared to the cost of construction.

[Paramount]

Depends where, I just sold a 1200 SF single car in KS for $50,000 small city lot, got the same now in San Diego, CA  @  $500,000. About ready to buy another nice KS city lot for $5,000. Cost of materials a little higher in CA, not much. Check out how NYC is solving high density affordable with micros: http://www.fastcodesign.com/3041865/slicker-city/5-trends-that-will-shape-the-future-of-tiny-housing

 

Try getting them zoned properly. 

[Richard_Morrison]

Reducing the size of the building does not do anything unless you can decrease land costs. Land costs are the main driver on what is built on it

I thought the issue was reducing building costs, which I took to mean construction costs. In terms of purchase price and investments, you are correct. I agree that entitlement costs are out of control, too. (And I'm including building permit costs, zoning reviews, etc. in this.) However, these costs are pretty much directly proportional to construction costs. People want a 5,000 or 6,000 s.f. house, and then complain that permit and zoning costs are so high. Well, boo hoo.

[Northriver]

Richard, I agree. When the actual building permit costs $250.00 and the other $ 20,000.00 is mitigation fees along with sewer and water hook up is another $15,000.00. Lot size or and building size has no effect on these fees.  I guarantee if there was away to squeeze  construction costs besides lowering the square footage of the home, the top 10 builders in the US are already doing it. The top 10 Home Builders also drive the markets where they build and the rest fall in right behind them. The only thing that will change the market direction and the demand for these 3000 plus sf  homes is when the customers stop buying them.

[Richard_Morrison]

Apologies to the O.P. for spinning so far off topic.

[Paramount]

We're not designing and building space shuttles here. (And the college degree guys got that wrong on a few occasions) It's time to reduce the costs of building houses, not increase them. What some are suggesting will only increase the costs.

Maybe try a free market approach for a change.

 Just out of curiosity are you doing any stress analysis and defining it on any of your drawings ot have any part in it? Offer any prelim FEM modeling to a PE? Are you a sole proprietary or corporate entity? Do you follow local and IRC code, no PE? Since it does sounds like you know alot here?? Do you think you ever make mistakes or omissions? For example, if I ask you a question about IRC braced shear walls can you answer any question I have? Bending moments, compression, shear, tensile, deflection allowables of materials and how they are developed or reacted by loads, and how every method satisfy loads? Does a designer need to be concerned here? Why, why not? Can you answer the OP, have enough stress and design in background to know the difference? I'd like to see your answer? In any designs you do, do you have anyway of knowing if you are producing a chemical or physical breeding ground for microbials (mold and bactieria, VOCs, etc) that potentially can kill people? Or do you rely on CA to give you that answer? If not, what engineer signs of on that part of design? Cost? What cost approach are you referring to? "Free Market" please define? Do you have an example cost lay out you are referring to, like a design-build cost outlay you recently produced?  If you can't understand space shuttles, please help understand buildings? And the drawing's, national or global (IRC) cost?

 

I'm hoping you are a pro that represents CA well, not DIY, otherwise, I have no further other responses nor waste of my time, and can address each and everyone of of my questions & comments professionally?  If you can, I think it will help the OP. Please do some good research before you answer and be more careful what you post. I think ppl come here to learn facts.

 

BTW: The latest post about the cost of land applies to CA, not the nation. Cost of land is not the issue driving cost, good designers are the problem, nor should anyone follow the crap the top USA builders are doing. Do not worship the ground they walk on, NHBA included. Sponsored money making BS. Design Guides? Right?  One knows they have a good design when the structural margins are .5, not 2 code minimum does not provide and, the design is chemically and physically stable. 

[parkwest]

Hey Terry, do you wear a pocket protector? 

 

I only hire engineers who wear pocket protectors.

 

Btw, my 2 brother in laws are PE's from U of Mich and my girlfriend is a PE from Georgia Tech.  Oh yeah, I forgot my Dad was an engineer.

 

Curious, how many projects have you design/built and in how many states over the past 40 years?

 

And how many states would you like me to be the qualifying officer in before you stop with your condescending attitude towards me?  Can a third generation licensed builder ever be the equal of a guy who designed duct work for a living?

 

OMG, I love engineers! 

.

[Paramount]

I got not idea what you just posted. Look at my LinkedIn, my designs are globally proven for 30+ years now, since I started in 1984 out of college. I'm just saying, people for liability purposes need to be careful. NO, you want no part of stress analysis I do in any part of your documents, or drawings, make that legally clear, unless you are a willing to take on legal liabilities licensed or not. 

 

Parkwest or what ever your real name is and proven credentials are, nothing funny going on here. I think if people want an internet comic they know where to to go, not here! You dodge my questions that apply to the op with your version in your own mind of humor, that says alot about your ability to design.

[parkwest]

The OP wanted to know if CA did any engineering calculations, if I recall correctly. 

 

You try to make it sound like only you can design houses properly and no one else can even put out design floor layout unless he has a PE after his name. 

 

My advice was to do the best he can and then take it to an engineer for review.

 

What advice did you give?

[Paramount]

Follow code that IS engineering structures design IF you get it and can without legal issues, and then some. I find it interesting degreed licensed pros like Richard are even out here trying for figure out drafting or HD image/video services? In the pest 20 years, in most industries this is next, drafting is gone in the industry I seen it in others this follows, grip yourselves, like it or not, 3D model def takes over, been there done that too, times have changed, for the cost reductions you mention but not the reasons. Forget the designer ever doing or being any part of FEM, that is your ego talking, you for the most part don't get and will get you in trouble, not worth it! 

[Paramount]

Anyway, I'm practicing 3D model based def getting paid more than probably most of you for large corporate with big funds, Just a word or the wise, I know where things will go here, Its just a matter or time. No, you don't want any part of FEM, nor the chem or physics. 

[Paramount]

Building Architects -  Your degree has failed you if you waste time answering questions like the OP. You should be out practicing engineering where your license is of value, not here on CA.Building Science s/b your primary subject matter and how CA applies as one of your tools. 

 

OP, drafters knowledge base, capacity, and scope of work if VERY limited and NO Way includes FEM, not even remotely close, IF you know what you are doing!