Template Wall Defaults

[stevenyhof]

I am noticing that the system continues to make copies of my wall types. I just spent 30 minutes going through and deleting all the duplicate walls in my main template. Feeling good, I started a new plan from the template and ready to go with everything cleaned up. I opened my exterior wall just to check, and notice that from the time I saved the main template to making a new drawing from the template (start new drawing), that the system made many copies of many of the walls.

 

I have been told to just set my defaults in the Defaults and from there modify as I need. I have, however, found it very nice about Chief that I can have a number of walls all ready to go. In fact, it seems that is a nice feature about Chief that we can take advantage of and set up. It has worked very nicely for me and I have saved a lot of time.

 

I expounded on that because my question is about why Chief is making duplicates of the walls? See my image. When I left my template, there were zero duplicates and all my walls were pointing to my main walls (not any _2 _3 ... were there) . Then I open this new drawing (from the template) and open my exterior wall type to see seven copies of my exterior wall - why is this happening?

 

And now when I go back and open my default template it is filled with these copies - ugh!!

 

Thank you,

Steve

[stevenyhof]

Let me add this video to further explain what I am running into...

[stevenyhof]

Well, I tried just clicking the Delete All Unused and that seemed to clear it all up leaving only like 6 in the list. Then I noticed that my 6" foundation stem wall was not in the list (among others) so I opened my 6" stem wall and it was now in the list. Hmmm... So my Default walls (set up in my defaults) are all there, so I guess I can just delete the rest. And as I need/use them from the User Catalog, they are added to this list. So now I will go back into my template, set them up in my User Catalog and Delete All Unused and see how that works...

[stevenyhof]

So I went into my template - made sure all my User Catalog was set to the right wall (no copies) and deleted all the rest. So I saved it with about 10 walls still in there - what seemed like the walls set by my Defaults. Closed it. Opened it and all the copies of the walls are back. So deleting all unused is not deleting all unused. My sheet is blank, so where are these walls being stored? And is there a way to truly delete them? 

[stevenyhof]

One thing I have learned is that once you open a new drawing from your template, it will have a growing list of unused walls that you can delete. But once you close and reopen that new drawing, all the deleted walls will be back - This was said as a joke. Really, Is there a place I can truly delete the walls I do not use? 

 

A though just came to me. As I continue to draw more drawings, and make wall changes per that unique drawing, is the system creating new/copied walls? So a few years from now I will have hundreds of wall copies? Cool!

[Dermot]

As far as I know, the program will not add any wall types when you open a plan.  This means that all of those wall types were probably in the plan when you last saved it.

 

There are a number of ways that you can add wall types to your plan:

   - You can create new wall types in the Wall Type Definitions dialog.  Using either New or Copy will allow you to add wall types.

   - Using the Import Wall Definitions tool.  This can bring in many wall types at one time.

   - Using the Import Default Settings tool.  If you import any of your default walls, the import process may bring in the wall types associated with them.

   - Selecting a wall type in the library browser and then drawing a wall in your plan.  This will automatically add the wall type to the plan if it is not already in it.

   - Copy a wall from one plan to another.  If the wall being copied into the plan is using a wall type that is not in the plan, it will be added automatically.

   - If you manually change the width of a wall (not in the wall type definition), the program may create a new wall type for the new width.

   - Some other method that I forgot?

 

I believe that in most cases the program will only bring in a wall type if it doesn't already exist in the plan.  If the plan already has a wall type with the same name, but one or more of the settings don't match, it will still bring in the new wall type and give it a unique name by adding the "_#".

 

My best guess is that you modified the wall types in your plan and then did one or more of the above operations, which brought in the new wall types with the new names.

   

If you have a plan, that you can confirm does not have the extra wall types when you save it, close it and reopen it, and the wall types have reappeared, then please report this to our technical support team and we will look into it further.  Please include the plan you are having the problem with along with the exact steps you are using to confirm the problem.

 

[stevenyhof]

I will also report this to support - but I have uploaded my template here. It is a blank sheet. There are no walls or objects on any floors - other than some text.

SND_D_Residential Template.plan

[Dermot]

The only thing that I can confirm is that all of those wall types are in the plan that you posted.  I have no idea how they got there, except through one of the methods I posted above.

 

Here is what I tried:

   - open your plan using File>Open Plan.

   - open the Wall Type Definitions dialog (from the menu Build>Wall>Define Wall Types...)

   - confirm that your plan has lots of wall types in the combo box

   - select Delete All Unused

   - confirm that your plan does not have lots of wall types in the combo box

   - click OK

   - save the plan

 

When I reopen the plan, it does not have any wall types that were not there when I saved it.

 

Please try the above and see if this works for you.  If it doesn't, than I really can't think of a reason why it would work differently for you than it does for me.  If you are doing something different than I am and you can reproduce the problem, then please explain the exact steps you are using.

 

[Dermot]

Here is another thought, maybe the plan you are saving is not actually the plan you are opening.  In other words, this is a file management problem rather than a wall types problem.

[stevenyhof]

2 minutes ago, Dermot said:

Here is another thought, maybe the plan you are saving is not actually the plan you are opening.  In other words, this is a file management problem rather than a wall types problem.

I thought of that too and then got busy - let me look...

[stevenyhof]

No - that is set correctly...

[Dermot]

Try the steps I posted above and open your file directly using File>Open Plan, not using New Plan.

 

[stevenyhof]

6 minutes ago, Dermot said:

Try the steps I posted above and open your file directly using File>Open Plan, not using New Plan.

 

Ok, so I opened up my template and deleted all unused walls and saved.
Closed the software.
Opened it up and closed the popup where you select what project or new, etc.
From the blank screen, I went to File > Open Plan and selected my template.

All the extra walls were there.

[stevenyhof]

7 minutes ago, solver said:

I was just experimenting with wall types in a template plan yesterday.

 

 

Don't understand why Delete Unused Wall Types leaves some, but not all walls in the newly created template.

 

Watch on YouTube: http://youtu.be/OwK1DOS1VKU?hd=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me try what you are doing

[stevenyhof]

20 minutes ago, solver said:

I was just experimenting with wall types in a template plan yesterday.

 

 

Don't understand why Delete Unused Wall Types leaves some, but not all walls in the newly created template.

 

Watch on YouTube: http://youtu.be/OwK1DOS1VKU?hd=1

 

 

 

 

 

 

• Ok, so I think you are on to something.
• I typically deleted my unused walls from the User Catalog - existing wall - Open dbx.
• This time I opened my template, I went into Build > Wall > Define Wall Types...
• I deleted all unused - and like you show, it still keeps a few, but I think those are in my Defaults - guessing...
• I saved my template and closed it.
• Then I opened my template and this time the walls were still gone!! So it seems the "Delete All Walls" from the User Catalog > Open Object... does the action of deleting the walls, but does not save into the database.
• Then I closed my template...
• Closed the software...
• Opened the software and selected - New Plan from the open screen...
• The walls are still gone!!!
• Solver... You come by your name honestly!

Thank you,

Steve

PS. I'm not sure if this means something is wrong yet with the Open Object... process of deleting the walls.

 

[Alaskan_Son]

2 hours ago, Dermot said:

- Some other method that I forgot?

 

Forgot?  No, I don't think so.  Overlooking?  Yes, probably.  I never took particular note of it till just now, but it seems that if a wall is displayed in the Selection Panel in the Library Browser, that it will be added to the current plan.  This means selecting a specific Wall Type folder will add every wall in that folder to the plan.

[Alaskan_Son]

1 hour ago, stevenyhof said:

PS. I'm not sure if this means something is wrong yet with the Open Object... process of deleting the walls.

 

Not sure why you were trying to edit your current plan setting through the Library Browser, but that is definitely not the correct route.  Your library is full of all sorts of items that may or may not be included in the current plan file.  Always edit your list of wall in the Plan file itself and not through the Library Browser. 

[stevenyhof]

1 hour ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Not sure why you were trying to edit your current plan setting through the Library Browser, but that is definitely not the correct route.  Your library is full of all sorts of items that may or may not be included in the current plan file.  Always edit your list of wall in the Plan file itself and not through the Library Browser. 

1. So I am finding that the Library Browser is connected to all plan files I create from the template. I guess I knew this in a way as all my other things like furniture are there for all files. I have fine tuned all these items with the layers on wanted and any details from the Library. It seems that Walls are this only thing I am running into as they are of a different breed.
2. When I am working on a plan and add a wall from the library, it is also added to the Define Wall Types.. dbx in my Template file. So the more I work on other plans and insert walls from the Library to build my model, they are added to my Template dropdown list in the Define Wall Types.. dbx. Which I do not mind and figured that is how it works. My issue it mainly with the copies it creates.
3. My concern here is that if I make changes to a wall in a new plan, those changes are not updated on the Library walls, but maybe a copy of the wall I am using. I think this is the reason why I am seeing an increase in copies on that list of walls. I'm guessing???
4. So if I add a brick wall to a new plan from the library, and change the brick to stone on that new plan from the wall itself in the plan, then the system is making a copy - ??? - I am guessing as I enter this. 
5. "Always edit your list of walls in the Plan file itself and not through the Library Browser."  So I only edit the walls in the Library in the Template file. When I draw a new plan then I will open the wall from the plan sheet and make my changes - not changing my walls in the Library.
6. So on a new plan, I may add my Exterior Siding-6 wall and draw all my walls. Then I want to change the siding to a different siding/color. So I open the wall on the plan (double click it) and go to Define. I don't wish to make a copy of it as I want all the walls on the plan to update to the new settings - which works. My fear now is that when I do this, the system makes a copy ( Exterior Siding-6_2 ) to save the original. Is this true?
7. OR... if I make a change on like Exterior Siding-6 is it also changing in my Library? That would not be nice as I want my defaults.
8. I draw all my walls with a common default. Then my client may want to see siding that is clay in color. I can and have used the Material Eyedropper for this, but that seems like a poor way to do it. I would just prefer to make the change to the existing wall settings.
9. I know one thing, I am doing something wrong by misunderstanding this function and making a mess of things.
10. I have a meeting this coming week with Steve Nester and plan on discussing this with him as it is on my list of things I wanted to learn more about.

Thoughts?

And thank you to everyone!

[Alaskan_Son]

@stevenyhof, I don't have the time or inclination to delve to deep into this right now, but a few really quick points:

1. Read my second to last post very carefully..  There's an unusual behavior in the Library Browser that is likely adding to your issue and to your confusion. 
2. I feel like you need to make a mental disconnect between the Library Browser and the Plan File.  The Library Browser is where you store wall types for future use and really should have nothing to do with the Plan File at all. 
3. To both of my last 2 points.  The fact you're in your Library Browser so much is exacerbating your problem.

My Recommendation: 

• Report your issue to tech support and mention the findings I mentioned in that second to last post.  In the meantime, it might be safest to toggle the Selection Panel off if you absolutely have to mess with wall types in the library browser.
• Stay out of the Library Browser with regard to Wall types unless you're specially adding a wall type to you library or pulling a wall type from your library.  No reason to be in there otherwise. 

[stevenyhof]

3 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

@stevenyhof, I don't have the time or inclination to delve to deep into this right now, but a few really quick points:

1. Read my second to last post very carefully..  There's an unusual behavior in the Library Browser that is likely adding to your issue and to your confusion. 
2. I feel like you need to make a mental disconnect between the Library Browser and the Plan File.  The Library Browser is where you store wall types for future use and really should have nothing to do with the Plan File at all. 
3. To both of my last 2 points.  The fact you're in your Library Browser so much is exacerbating your problem.

My Recommendation: 

• Report your issue to tech support and mention the findings I mentioned in that second to last post.  In the meantime, it might be safest to toggle the Selection Panel off if you absolutely have to mess with wall types in the library browser.
• Stay out of the Library Browser with regard to Wall types unless you're specially adding a wall type to you library or pulling a wall type from your library.  No reason to be in there otherwise. 

I will look into what you are saying and figure it out.
Just to note, Chief is designed for us to use the walls in the Library to draw walls on the plan - yes?
Like adding a Chair, I drag it from the library and place it in my plan. I use Walls from the library and place it in my plan. Outside of that, I am not messing in the library to change the walls in there. I set them up as my defaults and then only use them. I am not making additional changes to my walls in the library. 
Thank you for taking some time to look into this. I hope to help out one day also, but still wrapping my head around some of these things.

[Alaskan_Son]

If you want to test the Library Browser behavior I'm talking about, try this:

1.  Open a blank plan.
2.  Open the Wall Type Definitions dialog and Delete All Unused.
3.  Inspect your list of available wall types.  It should be quite short.
4.  Open your Library Browser and HIDE the Selection Panel.
5.  Open Chief Architect Core Catalogs>Architectural>Wall Types>Interior Railings.  Just select the Interior Railings Folder without opening it.  I chose this folder because the wall types in there almost all have the same name which makes it easy to inspect what comes next.
6.  Go back to the plan and inspect your Wall Type list again.  Should still be in the same state as it was at Step 3.
7.  Go back to the Library Browser and SHOW the Selection Panel.
8.  Go to the plan one last time and inspect your Wall Type list.  You should see a whole bunch on Interior Railing and Railing/Fence wall types that weren't there before. 

 

Play with it for a bit and you'll find that any and every wall type that gets displayed in the Selection Panel gets added to the Plan File. If walls are NOT displayed in that Selection Panel, the Library Browser behaves as expected.

[stevenyhof]

8 minutes ago, solver said:

I made this video a couple of days ago intended as a suggestion, but it also shows the behavior Michael describes how selecting walls in the library will add them to your plan.

 

And Steve, I'm sure you know these tools are tied to your defaults, so no need to access walls in the library if the default is all you need.

 

 

 

 

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/IeKjgElF5E4

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The video is helpful knowing that all you are doing is clicking on a wall type or the folder and they are added into the list. That is at least helpful to know how some of this is happening.

[stevenyhof]

3 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

If you want to test the Library Browser behavior I'm talking about, try this:

1.  Open a blank plan.
2.  Open the Wall Type Definitions dialog and Delete All Unused.
3.  Inspect your list of available wall types.  It should be quite short.
4.  Open your Library Browser and HIDE the Selection Panel.
5.  Open Chief Architect Core Catalogs>Architectural>Wall Types>Interior Railings.  Just select the Interior Railings Folder without opening it.  I chose this folder because the wall types in there almost all have the same name which makes it easy to inspect what comes next.
6.  Go back to the plan and inspect your Wall Type list again.  Should still be in the same state as it was at Step 3.
7.  Go back to the Library Browser and SHOW the Selection Panel.
8.  Go to the plan one last time and inspect your Wall Type list.  You should see a whole bunch on Interior Railing and Railing/Fence wall types that weren't there before. 

 

Play with it for a bit and you'll find that any and every wall type that gets displayed in the Selection Panel gets added to the Plan File. If walls are NOT displayed in that Selection Panel, the Library Browser behaves as expected.

Very good - I will try this - Thank you

[stevenyhof]

12 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

If you want to test the Library Browser behavior I'm talking about, try this:

1.  Open a blank plan.
2.  Open the Wall Type Definitions dialog and Delete All Unused.
3.  Inspect your list of available wall types.  It should be quite short.
4.  Open your Library Browser and HIDE the Selection Panel.
5.  Open Chief Architect Core Catalogs>Architectural>Wall Types>Interior Railings.  Just select the Interior Railings Folder without opening it.  I chose this folder because the wall types in there almost all have the same name which makes it easy to inspect what comes next.
6.  Go back to the plan and inspect your Wall Type list again.  Should still be in the same state as it was at Step 3.
7.  Go back to the Library Browser and SHOW the Selection Panel.
8.  Go to the plan one last time and inspect your Wall Type list.  You should see a whole bunch on Interior Railing and Railing/Fence wall types that weren't there before. 

 

Play with it for a bit and you'll find that any and every wall type that gets displayed in the Selection Panel gets added to the Plan File. If walls are NOT displayed in that Selection Panel, the Library Browser behaves as expected.

I see. So that is similar to what Solver was saying. It seems funny that just the Selection Panel itself would make a difference of adding or not adding those walls into the list.
I like things streamlined and often get carried away spending time trying to keep things clean - but this seems like a bug to me. As anyone can click on a folder just browsing for something that has nothing to do with walls. I liked Solvers idea of right clicking and having an option to add the walls you want. On one hand, new users may wonder why they can't have access to the walls available in the dbx, and on the other hand, other users, like myself, want to see only what I will ever use - making finding things easier and less cluttered.

[Dermot]

Editing a wall that is stored in the library is not the way to modify the wall definitions that are stored in a plan.  I'm not even sure if we should have the Define button when you edit a wall that is stored in the library (but we will have to look into that some more).  When you edit an object that is stored in the library, we use a temporary plan in to store the data that the library object needs.  Any changes to this data will only be saved if the object is actually referencing this data.  Any other changes to the data, will probably not be there next time you open the program because we never actually save this temporary plan.

 

The best way to modify the wall types in your plan is to open the Wall Type Definitions dialog directly from the menu: Build>Wall>Define Wall Types.

 

I can confirm that showing previews of walls in the library browser selection pane does add those wall types to your plan.  It should not do this.  The wall type should only be added to your plan if you actually draw a wall using it in your plan.  As far as I can tell, no one has reported this problem to us although it seems that Michael was already aware of this problem.  The good news is that this problem seems to have already been corrected in X13.

 

I am so glad that Solver was able to help Steve solve his problems.