SKB-ChiefUser

Gene,

I do apprecitae your comments and perspective, but I guess I'd like to say we need to agree to disagree.  I believe a lot of what we are discussing are Regional differences and personal preferences....

I've confirmed with both carpentry crews working for us today that the dimensioning methods I described above, our methods, are preferred by Them.

As to your issue with 'Architects', I've noticed that most do not have field knowledge to help them draw plans that Field Crews can understand and use efficiently (I went through both an Architectural Technology program (basically how to build buildings and draw plans to build buildings) and a fully accredited College Architectural program.  The Architectural program focused on design and artistic quality and had little to no information about how to produce working drawings).  I ran into many people in these programs that had a variety of knowlege and experience.  The ones who were most successful in the real world after school were the ones with field knowlege.

Dimensioning to Stud Faces was taught as a method that fit Commercial design better than residiential; though as long as the sandard used is noted on the plans most carpenters will work from whatever they get.

In this area our sheathing is generally flush to Foundation BUT, here in the frozen North (both Minnesota and Wisconsin) we have another wrinkle;  we are mandated to have Exterior Insulation of R15, 3" thickness (it can be reduced to R10, 2" thickness, as long as certain other specs are met). A sizable percentage of Builders here hang their Walls/Sill over 1-1/2" which further complicates the dimensioning process; Sill plates here are also 2 x 8 in this situation instead of the more normal 2 x 6.   The perfect dimensioning situation here (in Our Business) is to dimension Exterior foundation walls to the outside of the Rigid Foam which then equals the exterior face of the Sheathing.  Essentially the plans dictate a 'Framing Line' which is equal to the outside of the sheathing, and the outside of the foam.  Those locations dictate the outer shell of the home the Surveyor need to properly site the home and the lines the Foundation and Framing crews need to work from.  Generally those are always whole numbers, and also normally even numbers based on multples and divisors of 4' in order to be efficient with standard materials.   

Again, I think these all boil down to regional and personal standards, and I'm not here to debate them.  I am here to find out how to make the program fit my standards, not change my standards to fit the program.

Steve

2 hours ago, parkwest said:

From my experience, you can get CA to do just about anything using work-arounds or whatever.  I'm sure there a couple guys on here who can get it to sing the National Anthem if they wanted to.

 

The real question is: Is Chief Architect right for you?

 

Some questions that need answered:

Are you a production builder who uses base plans with a list of building options?

Do you build on a single lot? Or, do you need to show your whole subdivision?

Are you semi custom builder using base plans with extensive modifications to your plans?

Are you a custom builder doing "one of a kind" buildings?

Or, are you a remodeler?

 

Will the design work be done solo?  Or, will it be a team effort with several people in your office working from the same file?

Do you need high resolution renderings for sales and marketing?  Or, do you need construction documents only, and let the design center figure out the finish details?

Will you be working with Interior designers, structural engineers and architects who may require multiple round trips between your software and theirs?

Do you have a high turnover rate of drafters?  Will continuous training be required? 

 

I assume you have answered these questions before you began your search for a new software.  If not, you should.  It should you save a lot of time than what you are doing now by asking a bunch of basic questions.

 

I hope this helps you...

 

Good luck in your search!

These are all great questions, and yes, most of them are what we are considering.

We are a large local builder that builds everything from Townhomes, Entry-level Production, Semi-custom to full-on Custom homes up to ~$2m+.

We have a very small drafting department with very low turnover.  Design Center does some, if not most of the finish details (depending on the product).

There is little needs for cross-discipline work; generally our plan may go out once for use as backgrounds, but 95% of the work gets done in-house.

We do need graphics, and have a reasonably priced outside source for them, but getting them as part of the drawing process is a bonus.

Which of these does Chief Architect seem to be the best fit for 'in your opinion':

Production builder who uses base plans with a list of building options?

Semi-custom builder using base plans with extensive modifications to your plans?

Custom builder doing "one of a kind" buildings?

TIA  

Steve

I'm going through the the Quick Start stuff now, but clearly I have drawing/construction standards I need to meet.

I am currently evaluating Chief Architect as a Potential product for our firm.   I have a limited amount of time for that Evaluation.

Currently we use an older Program called Cadvance which is essentially an Electronic Drawing Board.  It lacks significant paramentric and 3D capabilities, however it's simple, fast and we have 35 years experience with it.

We also are using Sketchup/Layout successfully, but we are considering alternate products now.  (The attached images are 5 years old.)

Thanks Eric,

I hadn't found that yet.

So,

I ran into another issue.

When I try to start my Exterior walls, the system insists on snapping the framing to the Grid, though I'm trying to tell it to snap the outside of the sheathing.   Again it's a local standard and I don't want to restart that conversation, that that isn't the right way to build.  It's how its done here by a significant amount of firms and more importantly its how we have built for decades...  It's our standard and I need the program to fit us, not us fit the program.

I've gone in and edited my wall info but what should be dimensioned to 22'0" ends up with the OSB added... and becomes 22' 0-7/8", etc.

One other thing, can you globally change the wall designs and make them stick?  I seem to have to go in and change materials repeatedly everytime I start. We use 16" oc Framing as default, not the listed 24" oc.

I'll keep looking for these answers too, just seeing if I am missing spots to change these as I am looking through the software.

Thanks all.

Steve

33 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

Framers ultimately have to layout walls the same everywhere.  In fact your own statement proves this...

 

They're obviously marking wall edges meaning that at some point they had to add or subtract the thickness of the wall.  Your assertion that the numbers are simply being communicated as edge to edge markings may be true but this can only happen after the aforementioned calculations are done for at least the first wall in the string.  After that, problems can quickly and easily be multiplied, especially when wall thicknesses vary.   

 

Look at the following example.  Notice how straight forward the center line dimensions look on the right and then compare them to the resulting edge to edge dimensions on the left.  What you see on the left is what the framer has to arrive at onsite and the only way to get there is by doing some extra calculations.

 

 

It seems you have again just proved that the crews ultimately need edge dimensions.  You have however also skipped over the one scenario I can think if where wall centerlines make a lot more sense....when laying out anchor bolts. 

 

Anyway, I won't try to convince you anymore.  I would encourage you to at least take a moment to honestly reassess though.  I've seen this subject result in a heated conversation a few times but don't recall an instance where any carpenters were on the side of centerline dims.  Those of us who have spent any real amount of time in the field very clearly understand the inherent problems...problems that exist no matter what region you're building in. 

 

I will say this for you though...if your carpenters have become accustomed to all those centerline dimensions then I could see the potential for error if/when you were to make the switch. 

I have framed myself also,  and since I learned from Lead Carpenters,  I followed what they taught me.

Just now, GeneDavis said:

Imagine all that time lost and potential for error, making a mark, then a second mark at 1-3/4 or 2-3/4 offset.

I appreciate that, but that isn't how a framer marks walls here.  (It seems I've struck a nerve with this subject, sorry for that and know what we do works here 'no problem').

btw - the bigger issue is guys marking a wall line and having a grunt stand the wall on the wrong side.

48 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

Curious.  Have you actually conducted any kind of real world poll on this?  I've heard a similar sentiment a few different times but I don't recall having ever heard it from a tradesperson...only from architects, designers, and heads of drafting departments.  I would be genuinely surprised if you were to ask a few of your local framers and the majority said that they prefer center lines.  I can think of no logical reason why they would want that.  It just adds an error prone extra step for every contractor except maybe the foundation crew (which would typically have an error prone extra step either way). 

Hey,

I'm not here to change the world for anyone, just looking for what I need to make Chief Architect useful to us in our area.

Yes,  We've had over a dozen different framing crews do our work over the last 5 or 6 years (we've been in business since 1941, i chose not to look back farther) and all of them look for interior wall centers.  I've been doing it this way since it was taught to me my first year of High School in 1972.   (this isn't to say that if they were to work for another builder whose designer dimensions different that they would object.  Our regular guys look for Centers on interiors.)

Carpentry crews here have a 1/4" tolerance to their work, so any dimension less than 1/2" is generally ignored (no framer looks at dims of 1/8" or 1/16"; we set our dimensioning to 1/2" min.) 

Framers measure Center to Center, Face to Same Face on the next wall (basically center to center), they call out 'Butt in' or 'Hook on' as the dummy end sets up the next measurement...

Cement crews look for dimensioning from face to face all the way through the building so they can 'hook on' or 'butt in' as they mark the lines to snap.

Again,  I'm just making sure I can adapt Chief Architect to our needs.

Thanks Guys,

Steve

42 minutes ago, SNestor said:

@SKB-ChiefUser

 

 

See attached...

wall centers...automatic:

 

Dimension display...

Yes,  That's one place I came across...  Thanks for the confirmation.

Thanks for that,

I actually run the Drafting department for a large regional builder (over $25m in sales last year alone).  Interior wall centers is the standard around here.

I did find a couple more spots to adjust how the Auto dimensioning works and want to thank everyone for the comments.

4 minutes ago, solver said:

 

Have you looked at the Auto Dimension defaults?

 

 

 

Thanks again.

I do not find a separate spot for those yet.  Only the 1/4" etc standards...    I'll keep looking

6 minutes ago, GeneDavis said:

All the framers I know want interior walls dimensioned to an edge, not to the center.  Look at the example plans you see at the Chief site, all of which are showing interior wall locations this way.

 

No matter how long one has worked with CAD packages, one will still need to educate oneself on how Chief works and how to set it up for your preferences.

 

You can dimension to wall lines, wall centers, to inside finish surface, you can dimension in mm, inches, feet decimal, feet and inches, you can show the zeros, drop the zeros, you can do almost anything you want.  But you will have to learn how, and the help files right in the program will be your greatest aid.

Thanks,

This may be true in different parts of the country and if the dimensioning went to the Framing, and not the face of any sheathing.   Here in Minnesota, the Carpenters prefer interior wall centers.

Thanks for the Help.

I guess I could have been more specific.

I've been using (various) CAD programs since 1977, so while I'm a newbie at Chief Architect, I am a seasoned CAD drafting professional and am well versed at working my way through software.

-to Reiterate.

We are using Automatic Dimensions.

I have searched Help.  I have watched the Chief Architect Quick Start Videos.  I have gone through (what I consider to be) all of the preference dialog boxes and cannot find anything that allows the changing of the below items.  I have found other dimensioning standards available to change, and I have been able to alter them to match what we need to provide the field crews.

I am trying to figure out where to change dimensioning as the defaults do not match our office standards.  Our office standards are set up to match how a Production Framer lays out wall framing.

 

Ex. 

• Whole number dimensions seem to drop off the Zero in inches.
• Interior walls do not currently get dimensioned to the Center line of the wall; the default seems to be to measure to each face of the wall and this is an unacceptable change to how carpenters layout framing.  The dimensioning also changes from one wall to another.
• Interior walls do not consistently get dimensioned from the exterior face of the exterior wall, or from the exterior face of the framing; the default seems to be to measure from the inside face of the exterior wall and this is an unacceptable change also.

Perhaps my issue is trying to get Automatic Dimensioning to do these things?

Obviously as I move through the preferences more of these items will become apparent as to how to modify the program to meet our needs, but if these items are not changeable, we'll need to move on to other software...

I've already searched the database, help, and checked some of the videos.  I haven't come across a solution yet.   TIA

Brand New user trying out the software.

Trying to figure out where to change dimensioning as the defaults do not match our office standards.

Ex. 

• Interior walls con't get dimensioned to the Center line of the wall
• Interior walls do not get dimensioned from the face of the exterior wall
• etc..

I know most of this can be solved by changing the defaults, just have no clue where to find them.