More Structure dbx Challenges


HumbleChief
 Share

Recommended Posts

Larry, I did not watch the entire video,  I watched it until 1:07.   This is such a great vid that you did because it gives me the opportunity to point out the logic of CA.  

 

You dropped the ceiling over the porch,  which is the bottom of the deck above.  If you drop the ceiling of the porch,  what do you expect the deck above to do?  It will drop down because it's height is defined by the ceiling below. 

 

Why would you drop the ceiling of the porch?  The ceiling of the porch is the underside of the deck.  If you want the top of  deck to stay in place,  well, create a new ceiling/soffit ceiling under the deck at the porch.  I think you were trying to control the wall height by controlling the ceiling height....  wrong wrong wrong.  

 

Anyway,  see you at the workshop.  After the workshop,  some of this stuff might start to make sense to you.

Scott,

 

You said exactly what I was going to say.

If you want to drop the wall height and leave the above ceiling/floor alone, use a railing wall.

If you drop the ceiling and expect the floor above to stay put, then you need to "fill in" the space above the new dropped ceiling.

You could do this with a thicker ceiling/floor structure, or some other way, BUT, you have to make up for the height that you just dropped the ceiling by.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What i find appalling is that such a mature software does not have a clear & concise guide on how to properly use the dbx to control the floor & ceilings.

 

The information only addresses the most basic of conditions.

I understand what you are talking about, most of Chiefs videos and print materials are for basic conditions, but I think that b/c Chief is so versatile , there is no way to  show every condition that is possible. I don't think Autocad ,Archicad or Revit does that either. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CA should (IMO) show a complex example to demonstrate the inner workings so the USER can understand well enough to make full use of the software.

 

When someone of Glen's experience can not use the DBX for floors to solve what appears to me as not so unusual a condition then the help file & the video's have fallen short.

 

Anyone that builds, creates, or attempts to draw a house on a non level site or tri-level house and is more that a simple BOX will run into issues with the floor & foundation DBX.

I only use 2d autocad so I can not speak for the other software's.

 

So no one is asking for examples for ALL conditions just more than is being offered.

 

I'm not jumping on you Perry, my frustration is with CA as I too have spent may hours chasing the illusive settings that will put the floor where it need to be & get the foundations at the correct heights.

 

Currently I turn off automatic roof & foundation. I Build foundation once & modify I from there.

I open the zero floor level & uncheck  all the Floor boxed as I never have a basement or crawl space with a floor.

In the first floor I check "Floor under this room"  and uncheck the other two boxes.

 

That's my basic starting point.

 

And to those watching that are not aware be sure to uncheck DEFAULT when changing settings, not doing so can cause changes else ware you did not expect.

 

Interesting thread, I hope those experts will set us all straight on how to use the Room DBX properly. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, I normally don't have problems with floor heights and foundations, but I do agree, it should be easier for most people. Maybe more videos for different conditions would help. I usually start out using the automatic foundation, mostly to save time. Then I always have to turn off automatic foundations and manually repair areas that don't work as advertised. of course with lot of different levels, a lot of manual repair is usually needed. I don't think Chief really can do all conditions automatically, its kind of a new feature, maybe from X2 or 3 and wasn't thought out as it should be. But it works for me and was a lot worse back then, believe be when I started using Chief they didn't have anything for slab floors, except for just the slab tool. Small things like which level you want the wall on can give you fits, the secret is call the room a porch if you want the wall on the high side of the foundation. of course it's not a porch just add whatever name you want and adjust the floor finish and things like that. After that does the drywall come down ,on the foundation, to the lower level--no, so you have to also repair that. Sometimes I can just adjust the brick ledge to fix that, and sometimes it doesn't work and have to add a p-solid or create a new foundation wall with the drywall added. I could go on and on about things like that but all in all I like Chief and things like this could be in all the 3d software's. and it would be nice if it was documented somewhere.

Oh yeah , there seems to be a virtual slab in Chief, when no slab is present. figure that one out. I still find little thing I didn't know of before and probably will forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh yeah , there seems to be a virtual slab in Chief, when no slab is present.

 

 

Perry,

 

I'm glad you mentioned this. :)

 

Here is my take on this.

Because Chief is room based, when you have auto build foundation turned off and you build an enclosed room, Chief needs to build a floor.

By default, Chief builds a mono slab on level 1 and I don't think that you can change this behaviour (to walls with footings) without having a foundation floor.

 

So...when Chief auto builds this "virtual slab", it is really just building a mono slab under the room without a foundation floor (level 0) below.

It is not really a "virtual slab" - it is a real mono slab under a room - it's not a Floor Supplied by the Foundation Room Below slab.

 

You can't have a Walls with Footings foundation without a foundation floor level (level 0) - you can only have a slab, so...if you don't have a foundation floor, Chief can only build a mono slab - or a slab without footings.

 

The upshot is, it isn't a "virtual slab" - it is a real mono slab on level 1.

 

I very often build a house with a mono slab where the mono slab is built on level 1 (the main floor level) without a foundation level (level 0) or without a foundation floor.

 

Chief is just building a Floor Under This Room as a Monolithic Slab Foundation, without Floor Supplied by the Foundation Room Below.

 

Clear as.....  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When someone of Glen's experience can not use the DBX for floors to solve what appears to me as not so unusual a condition then the help file & the video's have fallen short.

 

 

Alan,

 

Where does that come from? I think you may have misunderstood.

I don't believe I ever said I can't use the dbx to solve the condition.

 

On the contrary, I believe that the dbx was being used without a full understanding of how Chief handles these settings.

The dbx can be used easily to represent the required situation.

 

Easily means that Chief works the way it works and the users have to work the way Chief works. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glenn,

 

You are absolutely right.  If the user understands how Chief works and follows that process it is possible to get the results desired.

 

OTOH, the Structure dbx is not at all intuitive and many users fail to comprehend that:

 

1.  It's best to work from top down without a Roof or Foundation

2.  To get different Floor Heights  on upper Floors while maintaining a uniform ceiling height below you need to adjust the upper Floor Structure.  You may also need judicial placement of invisible walls.

3.  If a Foundation or Roof is present - "Auto Rebuild" is a big help.

4.  Separate Ceiling Planes are an extra tool that can help.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Glen no slight intended.

 

I just don't see a clear explanation of how Chief works. It appeared you had a similar problem. Sorry for my misinterpretation of your post.

 

 

I don't draw/create the 2nd floor first.

 

I don't always know where the floor height need to be before I create the floor plan. So the defaults & set up are only a guesstimate.

 

The plan is dynamic until the concrete is being poured. :)

 

I need to know how to raise & lower rooms and sections of a house without screwing up the remainder of the plan.

 

I spent 20 minutes with a closet 2nd floor where the closet & entry to the master bedroom were even with the main living area and the master was dropped 2' along with the master bath & shower.

The garage under all this space was all one elevation. Every time I tried to adjust the closet floor the master bedroom ceiling would drop.

I tried everything I could think of. (no auto roof or foundation on)

Well the adjoining unit was a near mirror and it's closet was correct. I used the eyedropper tool to copy the room data & apply it to the other closet & a miracle happened. That changed the closet without messing up the master bedroom.

 

It's just extremely frustrating that this remain a mystery to me an others.

 

 

 

 

 

post-2435-0-71129200-1438574148_thumb.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Alan,

 

It' not a matter of drawing the 2nd Floor first.  However, if you want to adjust floor and/or ceiling heights you need to start doing that process from the top down.  I personally prefer to do that without a Roof or a Foundation - but if you do have those you need to have "Auto Rebuild" ON.

 

Also remember that having "Stacked Rooms" will make It a lot easier and that's where you may need "Invisible Walls".  In addition, you might need to use separate Ceiling Planes or modify the Floor Structure(s) or the Ceiling Finish.

 

One way to think of this process is that you are moving 3D volumes and moving one volume is going to "bump" another.  In addition, you may have a fixed thickness Floor Structure that might also be "bumped".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In reading Joe's latest post, it struck me that in order to make corrections to a plan with differing floor heights we need to have stacked rooms so that floors and ceilings can move up and down freely.  I will generally draw walls to create stacked rooms when I get the dreaded error message "Ceiling heights may not be changed..."

 

It occurs to me that instead of giving us this cryptic message, it would be better if chief simply drew a wall (perhaps in red) to create the stacked condition.   Corrections could then be made based on a coherent cross section view that shows what I've told Chief to do.  (Remember, I'm supposed to be in charge of what's going on.)  This would make problems obvious, and also correctable. One of the problems is that we have an obtuse error message that occurs on the floor below.

 

This does not address the issue of allowing things to ge out of control.  Larry's plan is a good example of this;  The basic problem was a misalignment in the hall hidden by the stairs, with the wall in the crawl below; but all of the defaults were already out of control, and there were other wall alignment problems, that made it difficult (but not impossible) to correct without a rebuild of the basement.

 

This really speaks to the need to work systematically.  If my defaults change in the design process; I need to bring them up to date as soon as I know.  We can't ignore the accuracy of the model, and expect to get good results.

 

Chief is so easy for beginners, that it is easy to assume that everything will work without much thought for the Z axis.  It would be good if Chief stressed the importance of the defaults, as we happily work without much thought in the X and Y axis.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It occurs to me that instead of giving us this cryptic message, it would be better if chief simply drew a wall (perhaps in red) to create the stacked condition.   Corrections could then be made based on a coherent cross section view that shows what I've told Chief to do.  (Remember, I'm supposed to be in charge of what's going on.)  This would make problems obvious, and also correctable. One of the problems is that we have an obtuse error message that occurs on the floor below.

A suggestion like this Bill is very valuable IMO.

 

I think it is the cryptic messages and obtuse error messages that hide the solutions deeply in the minds of the programmers, while remaining completely hidden for the user.

 

It wouldn't take much to explain the "Ceiling heights may not be changed..." message so the solution is clear but it's hidden very deeply within Chief's programming. It wouldn't take much to add a little larger section view with clearer explanations of each level and its effect on another level. It wouldn't take much to clarify what 'floor' really means, the first floor, the second floor, or the floor you walk on?

 

I am under no illusion that the structure dbx will be wholly changed any time soon and rebuilding it from scratch would like be replacing the foundation of a house after its been built. There are however a few minor tweaks that would help clarify the purpose and intent of each part of the dbx that would help every user.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Glen no slight intended.

 

I just don't see a clear explanation of how Chief works. It appeared you had a similar problem. Sorry for my misinterpretation of your post.

 

 

I don't draw/create the 2nd floor first.

 

I don't always know where the floor height need to be before I create the floor plan. So the defaults & set up are only a guesstimate.

 

The plan is dynamic until the concrete is being poured. :)

 

I need to know how to raise & lower rooms and sections of a house without screwing up the remainder of the plan.

 

I spent 20 minutes with a closet 2nd floor where the closet & entry to the master bedroom were even with the main living area and the master was dropped 2' along with the master bath & shower.

The garage under all this space was all one elevation. Every time I tried to adjust the closet floor the master bedroom ceiling would drop.

I tried everything I could think of. (no auto roof or foundation on)

Well the adjoining unit was a near mirror and it's closet was correct. I used the eyedropper tool to copy the room data & apply it to the other closet & a miracle happened. That changed the closet without messing up the master bedroom.

 

It's just extremely frustrating that this remain a mystery to me an others.

There's a paradigm within Chief that is very difficult for some people to grasp, me being one of them, and there's only one way to learn that paradigm and that's to thrash your way through many model types until it sinks in. I've used Chief at least 15 years and my brain just works in a different way than Chief wants it to and that's my loss.

 

The only solution is to learn how Chief works, and it's very difficult for some and not so bad for others. I don't think it needs to be so difficult and hopefully newer versions will reflect that ease of use but it's ways off IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Glen, to me it's still a vertical slab b/c you can't modify it, or select it. A mono slab is something you can work with and create a foundation plan with. The vertical slab cannot generate a foundation plan ,ever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK I get a call to day to change the 2nd floor closet floor elevation.

Need the closet floor (cross hatched) on the 2nd floor to be lowered 7.5" and NOT change any other rooms!

The ceiling above will remain in the same location, not come down 7.5"

 

The entry into the master will have to have a thicker floor by 7.5" to accommodate trusses and make that portion of ceiling in the garage the same in North South direction.

The step in the ceiling to the West will remain as is.

 

What is the best method to accomplish this? (before I screw the plan up)

 

 

 

46th Ave Townhouse B.zip

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share