Master List vs Material List

[pattyw]

I am struggling to grasp these two concepts.  I get the material list.  But the master list.....

 

When 1st learning CA, after generating my 1st material list, I was expecting to be able to enter the price for concrete, rebar, framing, etc.  I then updated to the master list. But, I still have lots of different concrete, horiz rebar, fir stud, etc.  I don't see a single place that I can enter a price for concrete.

 

I also don't see a way when generating a material list to have it auto pull from master list.  The master list looks almost like the material list, just without the floor column.

 

Is there a way to set a price for unique components and have them auto populate when I generate my master list?  Right now, only way I see is to edit the components of every single object and set a price there. 

[robdyck]

There are 4 optional places to enter pricing data: the Master List, a Materials List, the Components Tab for an object, or in a spreadsheet after exporting.

The best choice for automation is the Master List and the Components Tab for objects.

 

If your Master List is at first incomplete in its available materials, you can create a Materials List from a comprehensively developed plan and then update all those materials to the Master List.

 

You can then perform the reverse function, ie: update all the items in the Materials List from the Master List. This will update any new data to an existing Materials List. Simply click the upper left box to select all items and the click the 'Update from Master List' too at the bottom of the screen.

 

I'm sure you've read this but its worth mentioning: the Master List is always saved. You don't need to perform any function for this to happen.

 

[pattyw]

I get all that and that's what I do, but it's a bit tedious when I want to change a price. 

 

Today, I have 15 concrete rows I need to update in my master list.  Just scrolling through the list, it's broken out 2x6, knobs, hinges, etc into a ton of different rows and this is the master list.

Is there really no central place to set a price for concrete (per cuyd), 2x6 (per foot), a hinge, etc?  Or am I missing something?

 

Long term, where does CA want this data or what is their vision for this?  They give us a place to put it into a component with add'l fields for markup, labor, etc.  If I put it there, in the component, the material list pulls that in by default without any extra steps.  But then we can edit the material list, save it, and push that back to a master list, but now it's just a single number which requires extra steps the next time we generate a new material list.

 

Would be nice if there was a Master Components Pricing List feature or something where it would display all the unique components and let use set the price, labor, markup for concrete, framing, drywall, etc in one place and then when we generate a new material list, it's that much closer to be correct right away.

[robdyck]

Without knowing anything regarding the programming, it would seem logical that a price could be added to a material. That could make consolidation of materials / prices a bit more efficient.

As for being tedious...yup it spreadsheet work! It gets even more fun when all the concrete / gravel is priced per cubic meter.

[Alaskan_Son]

@pattyw, I could be wrong, but in reading your posts it seems you may have it backward and that you're attempting to use the Master List as your final output.  The Master List is like your pricing sheet or your reference sheet if you will.  You store information about how you want specific items treated and then you update your Materials List using information previously saved in that Master List.

 

1. Generate a Materials List
2. Go through that Materials List and enter Price information for each line item
3. Either one by one or as a group, select those rows and click the Update to Master List tool.  Your Master List is now populated with pricing information that you can use on your next project.  Fast forward to your next project...
4. Generate a Materials List
5. Either one by one or as a group, select your desired item(s) and click the Update from Master List tool.  If the selected row matches an item already stored in your Master List, then the Price information will be automatically populated in your Materials List.

 

 

[pattyw]

I am using the Materials List as my final and the Master to store prices.

 

I'm just confused why I have to enter the same price over and over into so many rows. Then when I need to change a price, I need to make sure I find and select all the same rows.

 

There doesn't seem to really be anything about master that makes it "Master".   I mean, if they got rid of that ID column and condensed it down so there was only one single concrete, 2x4x8, etc, then that would seem better,  I went into preferences and turned off the Id column, but yet, even after creating a new empty master list, when I update my material list back into the master list, all the duplicate rows still show up and it's just confusing why.  I'll see a bunch of duplicates, only one of those duplicates will have the default checked, but then I can't delete the non default ones.

 

But wait, there's more.  So I edit the one row that is checked default, I close master list, I reopen, I verify my new price is set for that one row out of all the duplicates that is marked default, I then go to my material list, update from master, and ..... nothing.  The new price did not come over.  So I edited all the duplicate row prices and modified by .01 and figured out which rows are going where. That's when I realized I do need to keep that id column on so that I can tell which group since it uses that somehow as part of primary key when going back and forth even though the IDs end up being broken and don't match, maybe they use just the group (Foundation,Masonry, etc).

 

So I play some more, looks like they don't use that default column either.  I have many duplicate rows in Master, looks like the last of the duplicates is marked as Default, yet when pulling prices from Master into the Material, it looks like they only take the 1st match from that group.

 

Is this really the way they are intending for this to work or is there an issue?

 

I just want to make sure there isn't some feature I've missed that lets me set the price for a cu yd of concrete, 2x4, sheet of drywall etc in one place.  It's tedious having to constantly find and update many rows.

 

Today, I edit my plan, then I generate a new material list, then I select all, then I update from master list, then I patiently wait while X14 goes through what seems to be convulsions for 10-15 seconds and the screen is weird and I can't do anything until the convulsions have stopped.  Then I have to deal with finding and updating various prices.

 

 

 

[Alaskan_Son]

A few notes:

1. I honestly don't use the Master List on a consistent basis and haven't used in much in X14 so I'm not sure if there are currently other problems or not, but the ability to delete an item is definitely broken.  I noticed that one a little while back as well.  Aside from creating a new Master List, the closest thing we currently have is to Cut (Control+X).  The row remains but at least its completely cleared out. 
2. With regard to the ID column:  Chief isn't testing to see if the ID number matches (F1, F2, C1, C2, etc.), it's just checking for the ID category (Framing, Cabinets, etc.) so that little number is irrelevant.
3. Per the Help files, Chief needs to see that the ID, Size, Description, and Label information all match before the item will Update to/from Master List.  This may explain why you're having to enter information for multiple items.  Something in one or more of those columns probably isn't matching.  
4. Per the Help files:  If the Master List contains more than one record for an item, the program references the last one entered. You can override this by defining one specific entry as the default. In other words, the Default checkbox only comes into play when dealing with multiple entries for the same item.

If after reading through the documentation properly, you find that something still isn't working as intended or expected, and you would like to see it fixed, then please take the time to report it to Tech Support. 

[Alaskan_Son]

By the way, just another side note.  You don't have to depend on the Master List nearly as much if you:

• Properly utilize Structural Member Reporting (which can be used to automatically apply pricing information all on its own)
• Properly utilize the Components panel for various objects
• Modify your Components at the Default level whenever possible
• When Components can't be modified at the default level, utilize either the Library or objects that you have stored directly in your templates

[pattyw]

Where are you finding your #3 and 4 in help?  I'm trying search but not seeing it.

 

Your #2 and #3 seem to conflict.  In 2, you say chief isn't testing ID.  In 3, you're saying the help tries to match on it, which it's not doing, and would never work given how the ids most times don't match.

 

Also, I'm not seeing what you're saying in 4.  I have exact duplicate rows, and the last duplicate is having the default column set on.  However, when I ask the material list to update from the master, it's actually taking the first exact match of all the duplicates, and is ignoring the default column.

 

Editing components is something I've started to do but it's still very tedious.

 

 

[Alaskan_Son]

10 minutes ago, pattyw said:

Where are you finding your #3 and 4 in help?  I'm trying search but not seeing it.

If I simply search the word "master", "The Master List" is the first item in my search results.  The information is all there.  You can also find it under Materials Lists>The Master List

 

14 minutes ago, pattyw said:

Your #2 and #3 seem to conflict.  In 2, you say chief isn't testing ID.  In 3, you're saying the help tries to match on it, which it's not doing, and would never work given how the ids most times don't match.

Read my post again.  I didn't say that they're not testing ID.  What I said was that its not using the number as the ID.  It's using the ID category as the ID.  Its still testing for ID, its just not using the piece of information one might assume.

 

16 minutes ago, pattyw said:

Also, I'm not seeing what you're saying in 4.  I have exact duplicate rows, and the last duplicate is having the default column set on.  However, when I ask the material list to update from the master, it's actually taking the first exact match of all the duplicates, and is ignoring the default column.

I think you're understanding just fine.  One of 2 things is likely happening....You've either found a bug that you should report, OR something is not actually matching even though you think it is.  Is it possible that there's some subtle difference you may be overlooking?

 

18 minutes ago, pattyw said:

Editing components is something I've started to do but it's still very tedious.

Don't forget to do this as close to the Default level as possible and the tedium should largely if not completely be eliminated for many objects.

[pattyw]

LOL,  I was searching for master.  I see it now. I thought you had copied pasted and was looking for bold but you're right it is there.

 

They do say if "ID" matches which it won't every time it finds that item on a new floor for example.

 

So they've created a way for an item to go into the master list multiple times  when pushing INTO the master list but there's only one that counts on the way out.

 

Seems like a bug to me.  If they ignored the ID (FO1, M1, etc) on the way in, maybe it would work better.  You'd still have duplicate entries across the different ID Categories, but there shouldn't be within any one category.

 

Even better would be that if one disables the ID column for the master list, then just ignore ID and ID category complete and now only one row would get pushed into the master list.

 

 

[Alaskan_Son]

1 hour ago, pattyw said:

They do say if "ID" matches which it won't every time it finds that item on a new floor for example

Again, its NOT using the ID number, its using the ID category.  That number (F01, C01, etc.) is completely irrelevant. 

 

1 hour ago, pattyw said:

If they ignored the ID (FO1, M1, etc) on the way in, maybe it would work better.

They already do ignore those numbers.  Those are just unique line item identifiers for your particular Materials List or Master List.  If you send and an "F01" Framing item from your current Materials List to your current Master List and you already have 10 framing items in there, then that item will be labeled F11 in the Master List.  Again, those numbers aren't used for verifying a match.  Its the ID category that's being used.  This way a 1x8 piece of Pine identified as Framing won't be matched up with a piece of 1x8 identified as Interior Trim when querying the Master List. 

[pattyw]

Whatever the system, it doesn't make any sense.  I just don't understand what is the purpose of having duplicate items in the Master List.

[Alaskan_Son]

12 minutes ago, pattyw said:

Whatever the system, it doesn't make any sense.  I just don't understand what is the purpose of having duplicate items in the Master List.

Can you post an example of your Master List?  I'd like to see the duplicate items you're speaking of.  I personally don't believe I've ever had any truly duplicate items in the same Master List.  And by the way, there are lots of reasons a person might want to have seemingly duplicate items including but not limited to:

• Storing different pricing information for different Vendors
• Storing different pricing information based on minimum quantities (buying in bulk)
• Storing different pricing information for different localities
• Storing different pricing information for different client types

Also, please make sure to report to tech support if something seems broken or doesn't make sense.  If its broken and not enough people report it, its unlikely to get fixed, and even if its not broken, its good for them to know when people can't make sense of the instructions.  That tells them that either the tool needs to be changed or that the documentation may need to be adjusted. 

[pattyw]

There's a manufacturer column so if they really wanted 2x4s from different vendors then that's how I would do it, but...  manufacturer is not one of the columns help says it uses to match on, so who knows.  Most my columns are empty.  For your other examples I would then use completely different master list files.  I don't think it's that easy to support your other scenarios in the same master list file even now.

 

I'm looking at this category in my materials list and it has 30 rows.  I have the same 30 rows in my master list, they're just sorted differently.  For example, all those various 2xs, they are sorted by floor in the material list, but then in the master, they're all still there, just now grouped together.

[Alaskan_Son]

2 minutes ago, pattyw said:

I'm looking at this category in my materials list and it has 30 rows.  I have the same 30 rows in my master list, they're just sorted differently.  For example, all those various 2xs, they are sorted by floor in the material list, but then in the master, they're all still there, just now grouped together.

 

Can you post the actual master list (the mmaster.mat file) from your data folder?

[Alaskan_Son]

4 minutes ago, pattyw said:

I'm looking at this category in my materials list and it has 30 rows.  I have the same 30 rows in my master list, they're just sorted differently.

How did they all get there by the way?  It sounds like you must have sent them all.  Why would you do that?  Shouldn't you have only sent one of each?

[Alaskan_Son]

6 minutes ago, pattyw said:

There's a manufacturer column so if they really wanted 2x4s from different vendors then that's how I would do it, but...  manufacturer is not one of the columns help says it uses to match on, so who knows.  Most my columns are empty.  For your other examples I would then use completely different master list files.  I don't think it's that easy to support your other scenarios in the same master list file even now.

I wasn't trying to suggest any specific approach.  I was just pointing out a few perfectly valid reasons a person might want seemingly duplicate entries.  Whether they would work or not and whether they would be good ideas or not are an entirely different discussion.

[pattyw]

I selected all in my material list and sent to master list.  I tried doing it one by one between the two list, but others wouldn't update.

 

Believe me, I've started with an empty master list, pushed ONE of those 2x4s to the master list, that's my only item in the master list, but it won't update any other of the exact same 2x4s in the same category in my material list when I try to update those rows in the material.  It's like behind the scenes, maybe they're also using floor as a part of the match.

 

I have too much stuff in my official master list.  I will try to create a sample file tomorrow.

[Alaskan_Son]

2 hours ago, pattyw said:

I selected all in my material list and sent to master list.

 

This explains a lot.  I did a bit of testing with some of my plans and found that you can indeed get almost completely identical items into the Master List if you group select like that and its seems to be because they line items are generated from different floors.  I feel like you're not doing yourself any favors by sending identical items to the Master list though and that your practice of doing so may be causing problems that you wouldn't otherwise be experiencing.  Having said that, you're also helping reveal a good handful of bugs, so its not all bad.

 

When this does happen (duplicate items), I can also verify that the Default checkbox does not do anything.  For all intents and purposes and assuming all items have the Use box checked, its always the uppermost item that gets honored.  There are also a whole bunch of other little anomalies that take place having to do with duplicates and on which floor the duplicate was generated by.  If for example the Use box is unchecked for the duplicate that was created from a Floor 2 object and you were to select a Floor 2 object and click Update From Master, the Floor 2 object would be deleted from the Materials List entirely; if however you do the same for an object on Floor 1, it does NOT get deleted.  It also seems that the Master List can become corrupted by the duplicate situation taking place but I haven't exactly pinned that down. 

 

Anyway, long story short, there are definitely a bunch of problems that need to be addressed.  You can certainly improve your situation by being more selective with which items you add to the Master List though and by using some of the aforementioned alternatives instead of or in addition to the Master List. 

[PMMully]

Material costs are in such a state of flux where I am, its almost impossible to track it anymore, at least for now. All my suppliers won't use my MTOs anyway, they always want to do it themselves. I just use it for ballparks and double checks.

 

Great posts through 

[pattyw]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:11 AM, Alaskan_Son said:

You can certainly improve your situation by being more selective with which items you add to the Master List though and by using some of the aforementioned alternatives instead of or in addition to the Master List. 

 

I've tried that.  Being selective doesn't do anything since it won't find a match between the two lists once something is on multiple floors.

[kylejmarsh]

On 9/17/2022 at 12:11 AM, Alaskan_Son said:

Anyway, long story short, there are definitely a bunch of problems that need to be addressed. 

 

One thing that should be addressed is that Chief should offer a standard 'Master List' with dang-near everything on there. Would be great if they hosted it on their website (with some kind of disclaimer obviously) and updated it every season or so. 

 

Problem is that all framing should be already on there (beacuse we're not creating anything new like that) and a basic window, door, etc. etc... just a 'ballpark' type of Master List would be excellent because I could export it and give to the builders just for gut check type measurements.

 

Maybe we should crowdsource a Master List together here at the forum. Would be a lot easier if we had all of us pricing things and adding them to a list than one of us chasing down prices for every part of our project like a General ...

[Alaskan_Son]

16 minutes ago, pattyw said:

 

I've tried that.  Being selective doesn't do anything since it won't find a match between the two lists once something is on multiple floors.

 

It's definitely buggy but in my own experience, it doesn't seem to become corrupted until you try to send 2 otherwise identical things from different floors at the same time.  Once that happens, the Master List seems to be broken from that point forward.  Hopefully you either have or will find time to report these issues.