Door and Window Dimension Conundrum (and I believe error in Chief):


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Take this with a grain of salt, I may be looking at it from my own little bubble and missing the big picture....  I also apologize if this has been discussed previously, but I did a couple of searches and didn't find any recent related topics....

 

Windows (work correctly in my mind):

You enter the width of the window, and that is the width of the symbol and dimension snaps.  If you change the frame thickness or rough opening sizes, the dimensions and symbol all adapt correctly.

 

Doors (incorrect in my mind):

You enter the width of the door, and that is the width of door blank (part of door that moves) only. It does not include the door jamb.  That is not necessarily incorrect or an issue (but see below for thoughts), but the actual problem is that Chief is basing the rough opening off the this width and not the outside of the door jamb (frame). 

 

To clearly see this yourself, you can place an exterior door, set door to a 3' wide unit, set the door jamb sides (frame) to 1-1/4", and set the rough opening to 3/4".  Now go into the auto-exterior dimensions settings and be sure the "Openings" check box is selected, and only select the Rough Opening check box .  Now when you refresh the auto-dimension, you will see that the dimension line is inside of the jamb. if you framed to that dimension, the door would not fit in the opening.

 

Bigger Picture

I believe that doors get confusing because entry door sizes are generally referring to the door blank (the door itself, not the frame).  A 3068 door has a door blank that is typically 3' wide by 6'8" high.  The frame and sill would add to the thickness and height of the door assembly.  Regardless of how thick/thin your frame is, the rough opening is based on the outside of that frame (not the door blank).  BUT.....  at least Andersen describes their patio doors (ie Frenchwood hinge, Frenchwood gliding) to the outside of the frame NOT the the door blank.  So a 6068 Andersen patio door is pretty close to 6' wide by 6'8" high to the outside of the frame (technically 5'11-1/4" x 6'7-1/2").

 

So....  I'm not advocating for what Chief defaults to for door dimensions, etc. (I would personally love an option in the door dialog box to dimension to the door blank OR the outside of the jamb (frame) and have the door basic door width show both door blank AND outside of jamb dimensions so you can set whichever makes sense of the particular door (ie entry or patio)). 

 

What I believe is the actual issue is that the rough openings for doors need to be added to the outside of the jamb NOT added to the door blank as it currently set to do regardless of defaults for where dimensions snap or whether the door width is setting the door blank or outside of frame....  

 

Separately, I do dream of an option in the door dialog box that shows the door width/height with 2 columns; 1 with the door blank dimension, the 2nd with the door frame dimension (door blank plus jamb thickness). Also an option to have temporary, auto, and manual dimensions snap to one or the other for each door...

 

Any feedback or thoughts would be greatly appreciated before I submit a suggested fix (haven't done that before, I'll contact tech. support unless someone lets me know if there is a form or some other preferred way to pass on issues).

 

Thanks,

-Huckle

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Age old architectural standards argument and reason why I personally have chosen to use dimension to center of door and window. 

 

EVERY manufacturer has different standards and the framers will need to adapt to the specified door standards.  Unless you have ALL of the product order information and it is pre-approved by builder and/or client in which case you can set the rough and final framing specifications.  

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1 minute ago, rgardner said:

Age old architectural standards argument and reason why I personally have chosen to use dimension to center of door and window. 

 

EVERY manufacturer has different standards and the framers will need to adapt to the specified door standards.  Unless you have ALL of the product order information and it is pre-approved by builder and/or client in which case you can set the rough and final framing specifications.  

Hi Ryan, 

 

I agree that it is preferred to use the center when possible, but we often stack windows above doors (post and beam, big walls of gable glass) so there are times we need to be specific.  Regardless, the real issue is that the R.O. dimension that Chief gives is incorrect for all doors (no matter the manufacturer)....  as the Chief RO is based off the door blank and not the frame.  To me, that needs a fix. 

 

The rest of it is subjective, and I personally like the idea of the door dialog box at least showing the outside of the frame dimension next to the normal width input box (door width + jamb thickness).

 

I wish I had thought to add this to my original post, but it would be really nice if Chief dimensions could manually snap to the outside of the frame (in fact, I believe there are no snaps available for outside of frame, so you can't even accurately place a point at the outside of the door frame).

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1 hour ago, postandbeam said:

the real issue is that the R.O. dimension that Chief gives is incorrect for all doors (no matter the manufacturer)....  as the Chief RO is based off the door blank and not the frame.  To me, that needs a fix.

IMHO it works as it should but the OOB template probably does not have the IRL size set as it should.  It is highly customizable to show whatever you want and the snaps are there.  The 36" exterior door for the OOB template is actually showing a 34.5" slab with 1.5" frame.  You are assuming that you are setting the slab size but you are actually setting the overall size when you use the 36" size...  Again EVERY manufacturer uses different settings so the parametric tools are there you just need to setup your template the way that you want it to be shown using the tools how they were designed.  

 

If you need help dialing in your door/window labels, or your dimension defaults give us an example of what you want to see and myself or one of the other very helpful users will try to help you get it setup how you want.

 

Hope this helps.

 

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30 minutes ago, rgardner said:

IMHO it works as it should but the OOB template probably does not have the IRL size set as it should.  It is highly customizable to show whatever you want and the snaps are there.  The 36" exterior door for the OOB template is actually showing a 34.5" slab with 1.5" frame.  You are assuming that you are setting the slab size but you are actually setting the overall size when you use the 36" size...  Again EVERY manufacturer uses different settings so the parametric tools are there you just need to setup your template the way that you want it to be shown using the tools how they were designed.  

 

If you need help dialing in your door/window labels, or your dimension defaults give us an example of what you want to see and myself or one of the other very helpful users will try to help you get it setup how you want.

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Hi Ryan,

I am experiencing something different than what you noted above and maybe it is a template or setting issue, but I don't believe so....  In the attached plan file (I believe untouched Residential Template.plan file), the size that is set in the door dialog box definitely does not include the jambs, so it is either setting the door blank, or the inside of jamb dimension. 

 

The two issues I have is

1. I believe Chief is incorrectly calculating the RO based on the door blank (or inside of jamb dimension) and not including the frame. 

2. It would be nice if there were snaps on the outside of the door frame so you could at least customize what you want to show/see.

 

Would you mind looking at the file (I have a few door examples with notes) and see if you get the same result, and let me know if what I am experiencing is a setting issue that I'm missing or a problem with Chief.

 

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

 

 

Chief Door Issue.plan

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FWIW, I have a macro that correctly displays the exact RO for both Doors and Windows.  It can be placed in the Label - or in a Custom Field to be included in the Schedules.

 

My price for this little Gem is just $35.00

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Here, most doors have an exterior jamb thickness of 3/4" and a R.O. gap of 3/8". So, I simply add 1 1/8" for the R.O.

Perhaps the bigger issue is that doors really aren't accurate are they? A 3068 exterior door slab is around 35 5/8" wide x 79" high, depending on the manufacturer.  And Chief seems to think that exterior doors should rub the floor! Last time I checked, most residential exterior door thresholds raise the door above the floor by 1"-2".

When you raise an exterior door in Chief, Chief no longer does a very good job with the 'sill' and sometimes has difficulty with the framing as well.

 

As for a  transom window above a door... simply add the door jamb thickness to the door slab width for the correct window width.  If the transom is mulled to the top of the door, Chief will have difficulty modelling this correctly and a workaround will usually be required.

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10 minutes ago, postandbeam said:

 

Hi Ryan,

I am experiencing something different than what you noted above and maybe it is a template or setting issue, but I don't believe so....  In the attached plan file (I believe untouched Residential Template.plan file), the size that is set in the door dialog box definitely does not include the jambs, so it is either setting the door blank, or the inside of jamb dimension. 

 

The two issues I have is

1. I believe Chief is incorrectly calculating the RO based on the door blank (or inside of jamb dimension) and not including the frame. 

2. It would be nice if there were snaps on the outside of the door frame so you could at least customize what you want to show/see.

 

Would you mind looking at the file (I have a few door examples with notes) and see if you get the same result, and let me know if what I am experiencing is a setting issue that I'm missing or a problem with Chief.

 

Thanks, much appreciated.

 

 

 

Chief Door Issue.plan 4.42 MB · 0 downloads

You are correct that the 2d representation of the jamb is showing incorrectly.  It is not as obvious when you do not use a color for your wall definition.

 

What the door size is showing though is the Overall with jamb (If you want the option to see the door slab then you should make a suggestion for it) so if you are using a door manufacturer who supplies for example a true 36" door slab plus the 3/4" jambs then you need to place a 37.5" wide door and change your label to be specify with either Joe's macro or cobble together a much less impressive one such as %(width-jamb_side_width*2)%.  You will need to also make adjustments to your schedule.

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3 minutes ago, rgardner said:

either Joe's macro or cobble together a much less impressive one such as %(width-jamb_side_width*2)%.

That doesn't account for the extra ro space and it also doesn't deal with the height.  Note that Doors and Windows have different attributes for the jamb vs the frame.

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2 minutes ago, Joe_Carrick said:

That doesn't account for the extra ro space and it also doesn't deal with the height.  Note that Doors and Windows have different attributes for the jamb vs the frame.

Yup exactly.. What I was saying was just for the label and would take other adjustments for the schedule.  That is why I think he should get a macro from you.  Didn't realize you were still selling macros though.

 

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39 minutes ago, rgardner said:

Didn't realize you were still selling macros though.

I've been pretty busy and some of my more complex macro packages haven't been checked for compliance with X14.  Actually, there are some problems with text formatting in X14 (interline spacing) that need to get fixed first.

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3 hours ago, postandbeam said:

What I believe is the actual issue is that the rough openings for doors need to be added to the outside of the jamb NOT added to the door blank as it currently set to do 

for interior doors I've always known the RO to be door width +2" for prehung off the shelf doors

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The hinged doors I know about are all under-width to fit into a nominal whole inch opening.  A 3/0 door slab is 3/16 to 1/4 under 3/0 in width and that margin varies shop to shop.

 

But the jamb thickness is a pretty consistent 3/4", thus the unit width of a 3/0 door is 37-1/2".

 

The glass patio door biz is separate from the hinged door biz, and the units, instead of being assembled in door shops from slabs and frame parts, are completely factory-built.  There is no real standard for unit sizes of these.  You gotta get the manufacturer info.

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So to narrow it down, am I correct with any of these statements (nothing to do with labels)?:

 

-Chief will not dimension or provide snaps to the outside of the door frame?

-The width entered in the dbx of doors is to the inside of the jambs or the door blank size (approximately the same thing), not the outside of the frame?

-The rough opening dimension lines/snaps are the RO size in the door dbx box added to the inside of the door jamb, not from the outside of the frame?

 

My previously attached plan seems to show the above statements above to be true, maybe take a look at that if you think any of these statements above aren't accurate?

 

Thanks,

-Huckle

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7 minutes ago, postandbeam said:

Chief will not dimension or provide snaps to the outside of the door frame?

Correct.

 

7 minutes ago, postandbeam said:

The width entered in the dbx of doors is to the inside of the jambs or the door blank size (approximately the same thing), not the outside of the frame?

Correct

 

8 minutes ago, postandbeam said:

The rough opening dimension lines/snaps are from the inside of the door jamb, not from the outside of the frame

Sort of. They are based on the size of the door slab.

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