Pulling the trigger on a new computer.

[MarkMc]

6 minutes ago, Doug_N said:

Didn't I see somewhere that CA does not take advantage of multiple CPU cores?

Note that in the first chart I posted notice CPU usage for every core hit 100%.Only Chief and one tab of FF were in use during that time; been seeing results like that for several years now. I have directly asked developers about it and been told Chief uses multiple cores.

[Kbird1]

1 hour ago, Doug_N said:

Both of them will be PCIe drives for the highest throughput rates

 

Check the PCIe4 vs PCIe3 versions as Corsair has lots of "force" models , both are faster than SSDs but PCIe 4 is twice as fast as PCIe3.

 

M.

[65Shelby]

4 hours ago, Doug_N said:

Didn't I see somewhere that CA does not take advantage of multiple CPU cores?

Hey Doug, maybe not, but you will want them available for your other non CA programs running simultaneously.

I see you are eager to purchase as your current system is bogging down, but as I stated on another thread over a month ago, GPUs will continue to plummet, especially after the 40 series hits.

11th gen CPUs will also start their descent with 12th gen hitting market, if there is ANY way to hold on, you could get a KILLER deal.

JSnell

[HumbleChief]

13 hours ago, MarkMc said:

Note that in the first chart I posted notice CPU usage for every core hit 100%.Only Chief and one tab of FF were in use during that time; been seeing results like that for several years now. I have directly asked developers about it and been told Chief uses multiple cores.

The history of Chief is now a pretty long story and I don't remember all of it but I think there was a time when the Ray Tracing engine used to max out multiple cores (and there was/is a setting to do so) but most other operations performed better with a faster, single thread operation core machine. Nowadays, as Mark has noted, Chief seems to max out multi cores for every day operations.

 

Either way the concern is a bit moot as today's processors have both very fast single core operations and multi core competence. None of that information would lead me to buy yesterday's 11 gen processor/MOBO when the newer 12th gen platform is available today.

[Doug_N]

8 hours ago, 65Shelby said:

Hey Doug, maybe not, but you will want them available for your other non CA programs running simultaneously.

I see you are eager to purchase as your current system is bogging down, but as I stated on another thread over a month ago, GPUs will continue to plummet, especially after the 40 series hits.

11th gen CPUs will also start their descent with 12th gen hitting market, if there is ANY way to hold on, you could get a KILLER deal.

JSnell

Thanks for the advice!  I am going to think about it.

[Doug_N]

Great info guys, you are all advising me to go 12th gen CPU.  That means DDR5 memory and 690 mother board as well I think.  Anything else.  I already have the fastest PCIe ssd 

 

This would increase my cost by about $600 think.  I really don't think that I will wait for any price drop.  Oh and I have changed the power supply from Seasonic to EVGA because of some bad reviews I have seen about Seasonic ripple and unexpected shutdowns in some circumstances.  

[Doug_N]

10 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

...Either way the concern is a bit moot as today's processors have both very fast single core operations and multi core competence. None of that information would lead me to buy yesterday's 11 gen processor/MOBO when the newer 12th gen platform is available today.

Thanks, I am going to take your advice regarding 12th gen.

[HumbleChief]

2 minutes ago, Doug_N said:

Thanks, I am going to take your advice regarding 12th gen.

I think the decision will pay benefits for a few years. Please let us know what you end up with.

[Doug_N]

For sure, it will appear in my signature!  And I will post once I have the build done and tested.

[Kbird1]

2 hours ago, Doug_N said:

Thanks, I am going to take your advice regarding 12th gen.

 

Intel is supposed to release their "fastest ever" CPU today actually ...... the 12th gen i9-12900KS but I'd expect a high Price , but think the 12700K or KF got good reviews too.

 

Mick

[Doug_N]

2 hours ago, HumbleChief said:

I think the decision will pay benefits for a few years. Please let us know what you end up with.

 

4 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

Intel is supposed to release their "fastest ever" CPU today actually ...... the 12th gen i9-12900KS but I'd expect a high Price , but think the 12700K or KF got good reviews too.

 

Mick

Good news, by doing some judicious shopping and tweaking of items I got everything in the proposed computer to 

MSI Pro Z690-A WIFI motherboard

Corsair Vengance 32 GB DDR5

Intel Core i7-12700K 

For an increase in cost of $309.  Well worth it I think.

[Kbird1]

8 minutes ago, Doug_N said:

MSI Pro Z690-A WIFI motherboard

 

Is a budget board and the Z490 and Z590 versions had Issues , so dig deep with Google for reviews and see if they where fixed

as that is a large stepdown from the Unify

[65Shelby]

On 4/4/2022 at 9:29 AM, Doug_N said:

 

Good news, by doing some judicious shopping and tweaking of items I got everything in the proposed computer to 

MSI Pro Z690-A WIFI motherboard

Corsair Vengance 32 GB DDR5

Intel Core i7-12700K 

For an increase in cost of $309.  Well worth it I think.

Did you pull this punch?

[Doug_N]

1 hour ago, 65Shelby said:

Did you pull this punch?

I am building it.  One hicup so far.  The CPU cooling rig didn't have the right mounting bracket for the i7 12700k.  Just waiting for it to arrive.  Deepcool is sending one at no charge.

[65Shelby]

5 hours ago, Doug_N said:

I am building it.  One hicup so far.  The CPU cooling rig didn't have the right mounting bracket for the i7 12700k.  Just waiting for it to arrive.  Deepcool is sending one at no charge.

Ok, really hope all goes well.  Please keep warranty paperwork close.

I'm reading Alder Lakes are over heating and warping.

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-comments-on-alder-lakes-warping-and-bending-issues-mods-void-warranty

Please pay close attention (maybe even a CPU monitor) while running.

This is reason #4,387 why I don't like using new; hardware, software, OS's, patches, etc as an IT Professional, until public works all bugs out.

I really do hope you are ok and this is a small rare batch-run having these issues.

JSnell

[mtldesigns]

It loos like I can no longer wait myself.. system is getting slower, files are getting bigger and it looks like X14 release isn't too far away.  I don't have space to load 14 that and keep 13, at least I don't think I will.  I AM NOT a computer guy, so all the things you all are mentioning is mostly another language.  I understand the basics.  I have been looking at AVA since it was mentioned above.  One question before I get to my main focus is, are all desktops from AVA a kit and do I need to build it?  I don't want to do that is why I am asking.   

 

But my main focus, is this workstation (attached).  You guys know what to look for and what the future will need.  I find this price is awesome compared to an Alien, but again, I hope this is not something I need to build.  I do want a video card that will drive Chief and Twinmotion for a couple of years to come.  I do want storage, lots of it.   I'm burned out on constantly maxxing my drive.  I want speed.  You pro's let me know your opinion please.  Do I have to much or not enough?  

 

Thank you in advance

[Kbird1]

18 minutes ago, mtldesigns said:

 One question before I get to my main focus is, are all desktops from AVA a kit and do I need to build it?  I don't want to do that is why I am asking.   

 

But my main focus, is this workstation (attached).  You guys know what to look for and what the future will need.  I do want storage, lots of it.   I'm burned out on constantly maxxing my drive.  

 

 

AVA Builds and Tests systems ( "Burn in Test" )  if requested/paid for before Shipping 

 

 

You don't need 

(2) Video cards for chief it can't use them...... get (1) 3080 or 3080Ti - depending on budget go for Ti

or the (1) 500 GB Sata SSD ( see below )

 

and  the Swap 500GB NVME for 2TB   ( 1TB minimum ) instead. ( thus sata SSD not needed.)

 

Do a deep dive on Google for Reviews etc on the Z690 Prime-P Mobo and make sure there are no known Issues currently....

 

Mick.

[HumbleChief]

10 hours ago, Kbird1 said:

 

AVA Builds and Tests systems ( "Burn in Test" )  if requested/paid for before Shipping 

 

 

You don't need 

(2) Video cards for chief it can't use them...... get (1) 3080 or 3080Ti - depending on budget go for Ti

or the (1) 500 GB Sata SSD ( see below )

 

and  the Swap 500GB NVME for 2TB   ( 1TB minimum ) instead. ( thus sata SSD not needed.)

 

Do a deep dive on Google for Reviews etc on the Z690 Prime-P Mobo and make sure there are no known Issues currently....

 

Mick.

I concur and might add a suggestion re: the  4TB 3.5" HD? Why? Genuinely curious. Backup? Or? A 2 TB NVME seems to make the most sense these days and will be faster than the other drives and speed is usually the reason for the season.

 

Also do not forget a GOOD cooling system as I believe the i9-12900F's run pretty hot. 

 

Also good chance your post will get lost in this thread but good luck and let us know what you end up with please.

[Doug_N]

Just out of curiosity, how much performance gain is there between an i7 12700k and an i9?  The i7 is already 12th generation.  That means you can use DDR5 memory with an i7.  I opted for 4800 mHz.  I have seen some videos with motherboards having a hard time registering (sometimes) all the memory with faster memory.  Just my opinion but as building designers, we need the fastest STABLE computers possible.  Bleeding edge speeds are great for gamers that can spend hours tweaking BIOS settings, but I just need to be working along with my design ideas, and not waiting for the computer to catch up.  

 

For me I am nearly there now with my current setup, with large projects dragging me down to painful waits.   Again, just my opinion, but why spend more than you really need for a CA machine than you really need. (Unless you are a gamer as well...lol)

 

Any thoughts?

[HumbleChief]

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-12900K-vs-Intel-Core-i7-12700K/4118vs4119

[Doug_N]

2 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i9-12900K-vs-Intel-Core-i7-12700K/4118vs4119

I am surprised at the price!  Just about the same for both.

[MarkMc]

13 hours ago, mtldesigns said:

let me know your opinion please

First I was really happy with AVA. Be sure to find someone to talk with. I worked with Kyle.

 

I've only been glancing at reports lately since I'm some time away from a new build. Might be next year so looking but not in earnest, just seeing what I want to double check along the way.

That said, partly based on my last build I'm an i7 fan, even might consider the top end i5. Reasons are heat, power and noise, mostly heat. I prefer air cooled to AIO and don't see enough difference to the i9 in real performance. I try to balance heat, noise, price, and performance.. I've become convinced that just getting the top end is not always worth it for the first 3 with small sufficient gains IRL performance (just my opinion).

 

1. I am looking forward to the 4000 series which if it does what is rumored will get me to a new build sooner than normal- like next year I hope. So if I were going to plan on that and had to do a new build now I would not go for top end GPU, rather a 3070 which are rare, or a 3060ti. I do enough RTRT and for heat, noise and $$ I don't see using the top end. I would get a branded GPU with at least a slight overclock though, after research.
2. Name brand NVME (Samsung, MSI, Plextor, Sabrent, WD Black, again after research)- 2 of them minimum 1TB but perhaps a 2TB and a 1TB. When researching I look at the performance chart for smaller file size, NOT the big number which never happens with what we do (unless you do huge vids) Minimum 1TB since they slow down if the get filled. More storage as needed but I manage fine with 3 version of Chief and a mess of other stuff with what I have along with 10 years of files that I'm not great about cleaning up.
3. Get upgraded thermal paste...always.
4. No idea about that case but might look into upgrade/adding  case fans-I have Silent Wings and very happy.
5. As noted I'm not an AIO user so no comment there.
6. I'd check ratings for power supply now that going to higher watts. Just saw ASUS came out with some huge 1600 watt, I suppose in anticipation?
7. MOBO- Prime is usually good middle ground but with power consumption going up I'd just double check what they say about the VRM. Other than that I simply love extra ports and an internal header. (Nice to see a 2 x 2 there though- get a portable for a few hundred to use it. I've got a portable 2 I use and one of these days will get a 2 x 2 since I have the port-great when moving from one machine to another-faster than the cloud IMO. I keep a bunch on mine now just in case)
8. Ditto to DDR5 memory. I've seen it suggested that there is sufficient difference to having four 8GB over two 16GB. Again all subject to a little research.

I check Techpowerup, Tweaktown, and Techspot preferring the first two. Used to go to Anandtech a lot but something changed on the site so don't have that bookmarked any longer.

As always YMMV.

[65Shelby]

Lots of comments here and I am going to agree with most but differentiate on some...
Your fastest hard drive should be your OS drive.  You definitely want that to be NVMe.  It does not however need to be huge.  I would recommend getting other drives as your "storage" drives.
There is zero reason to store old, archived, data on a large NVMe drive.  A seconday SATA SSD should suffice for that.
Whether you have a mechanical hard drive or SSD, there is always "SEEK" that has to happen.  If its on old mechanical, its looking at spinning platters or an SSD looking through the different chips.  If you have large drives as your OS Drive you're creating longer SEEK times.

With that said you also want to install as many programs on a second hard drive for those same seek-time reasons.
Let me show you my laptop setup.

 

OS Drive is only 500GB and Im only using 181GBs, and thats with Windows 10, Windows 11 and Ubuntu OS options in multi boot.
Programs Drive is where I have all my Office 365 and IT Tools installed, VMWare, Hyper V, etc.
Apps and Cloud are just that...  I have all my importan files and program installers on this drive, which syncs to my One Drive
Arch and CAD drive is where I have Revit, Blender, Bluebeam, Chief, CAD, PlanSwift, SketchUp and other construction based software installed.  (but all my data files from them are on my Apps and Cloud drive again).

I just said a lot and I apologize, but what I am trying to say is.  Keep your OS drive lean and have multiple drives for each task and your performance will blow away all your friends.

I come from the angle of being a Systems and Network Engineer and have had decades of experience, testing and building machines for clients and customers.  I admit Im not a GPU afficionado, I will leave that to Mick and others but having a fast OS Drive, another for programs and a third for long term archival storage will make a world of difference.

Good luck and if you have any questions, please feel free to PM me.
JSnell

[Doug_N]

1 hour ago, 65Shelby said:

Keep your OS drive lean and have multiple drives for each task and your performance will blow away all your friends.

 

I have installed to 2 2T SSD.  One is for the OS and everything related to CA on that drive.  Libraries, templates, everything, including project files, that are mirrored to MS One Drive. All of my project files amount to about 180GB.  So not that much really.  

The second drive is for all other programs and all data that isn't related to CA.  

 

Could I improve things by not installing CA on the OS drive?  Would it make that much difference?

[65Shelby]

1 hour ago, Doug_N said:

 

I have installed to 2 2T SSD.  One is for the OS and everything related to CA on that drive.  Libraries, templates, everything, including project files, that are mirrored to MS One Drive. All of my project files amount to about 180GB.  So not that much really.  

The second drive is for all other programs and all data that isn't related to CA.  

 

Could I improve things by not installing CA on the OS drive?  Would it make that much difference?

I think you would see better performance with CA (and other programs) installed on the second drive.  To keep your boot drive as clean as possible really is a huge help.  Now will it be night and day... no.  But it spreads out your read\writes across multiple drives which is beneficial and we all know our SSDs are limited to a certain number of read\writes so longevity also plays into this.  (I really should have mentioned this above also.)

"The downside of SSDs with the NAND Flash based chips is that they have a limited life span by default. While normal HDDs can – in theory – last forever (in reality about 10 years max.), an SSD lifespan has a built-in “time of death.” To keep it simple: An electric effect results in the fact that data can only be written on a storage cell inside the chips between approximately 3,000 and 100,000 times during its lifetime. After that, the cells “forget” new data. Because of this fact – and to prevent certain cells from getting used all the time while others aren’t – manufacturers use wear-leveling algorithms to distribute data evenly over all cells by the controller. As with HDDs the user can check the current SSD status by using the S.M.A.R.T. analysis tool, which shows the remaining life span of an SSD."
JSnell