another roof oddity


jasonN
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must be a bad day for roofs. the fascia will not join at the top, but if I shorten one eave from say 2' to 1'6" it  will work.

 

You probably noticed the wall on the right, I gave up in trying to get the right corner wall working properly after  an hour.

 

Any ideas on the fascia? I find it ironic if the eaves widths do not match, the fascia will show correctly, but when I match them they wont. I almost suspect it maybe it is off angle but I checked it is 2' eave at the ridge and at the wall

image.thumb.png.03aa05284a9e6e581e4558ba10be38f5.png

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, rgardner said:

Do you have any manually placed ceiling planes that are not snapped to the drywall or main layer by chance?

 

Or maybe an errant attic wall floating around somewhere?

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Post the plan or use a copy of the sub fascia and edit it for the fascia.  Fortunately they fixed the issue caused me to do that, so now I don't have to do that on almost every job any more.

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1 hour ago, rgardner said:

Do you have any manually placed ceiling planes that are not snapped to the drywall or main layer by chance?

no, flat cieling only

 

1 hour ago, LevisL said:

Or maybe an errant attic wall floating around somewhere?

found a few of those and deleted, and tried moving them around. also tried moving the roof plane closer to wall, away from wall for the lower roofs. I never know where is it suppose to land (at the stud, at the sheathing, at the siding(doesnt look like it snaps to that)). 

 

but it is the eave, what might an attic wall have to do with an eave?

 

I'll post the plan. this is an addition on an existing house which is why you will see both 2x4 and 2x6 walls 

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here it is. It is two gables, the addition is 2 9' ceilings, so the addition gable is higher.  and there is a sloping roof in between to direct water to front and back.

 

Thanks allbrIan wong addtion3 SIMPLE ROOFS 2.zip

 

I also noticed my ridge cap looks different between the lower and upper roofs. Makes me think something is going on there. For the upper roof I checked the roof ridge height to ensure both planes matched, and they are the same

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oh and I did have the opposite problem where the facia only drew part way on the right side (maybe only 4 feet from the right). not sure how i fixed that to end up with this. It might have been that be the eave widths were close but not the same

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Zoom in real close on this point and you'll see that your overhangs don't quite match. I made them snap to the point you have there and the fascia looks like it should after that.

image.thumb.png.070ee05416874e3a87501161785814ce.pngimage.thumb.png.0abd88260e2f22effa20517b366e9c6c.png

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After Mark mentioned the off-angle edges, I looked more and I'm finding all kinds of precision issues with the roof planes on your plan, which explain many of your problems:

 

1. The upper roof planes are not identical on both sides and aren't properly joined at the ridge. One side has a pitch of 4.002289" (change the dbx to decimal inches to see).

image.thumb.png.bead3876cbc905b319358cd330ac4e11.png 

2. The overhangs are not exactly 24" all around, due to the off angle edges Mark discovered.

3. Your lower roof with the "different ridge cap" doesn't actually have a ridge cap because it isn't properly joined either. Part of the ridge on the lower plane is also at an odd angle.

image.thumb.png.2cb81098b5069450669bac6f5f70cdc1.png

4. That 3:12 roof in between the upper and lower roofs is a couple inches to high and doesn't extend all the way to the upper wall.

image.thumb.png.d7f9faf50a8ad1625e83564a031490f4.png

 

If I can give you a few pointers to improve accuracy:

1. Make sure your object snaps are on, as well as angle snaps

2. Work with line weights turned off to be able to see better if things are lining up

3. Use the 'Join Roof Planes' tool instead of manually joining ridges

 

Still trying to figure out the wall intersection problem. I'll keep you posted on that one!

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15 hours ago, LevisL said:

If I can give you a few pointers to improve accuracy:

1. Make sure your object snaps are on, as well as angle snaps

2. Work with line weights turned off to be able to see better if things are lining up

3. Use the 'Join Roof Planes' tool instead of manually joining ridges

thanks a lot, yes I do seem to have the precision issue a lot (but that expand the decimals will help me troubleshoot better). I have not managed to figure out how to properly get the roof planes to line up on a consistent basis, especially when doing the hip.

 

I will admit I knew the 3:12 little roof were off, but as it is being stick built and I did not really know how to find that specific elevation point on the lower side, I left it as the guestimate. Basically I sat there moving it up and down on the one side until it looked ok it elevation. There must be a better way to do that.... I found the top point by using the temp cad marker and pref setting for intersecting roof planes. that worked well.

 

The gap above was me fiddling around trying to get the wall to look proper as i noticed if I have the roof too close to the wall, the siding will not show, so i figured I'd back it right off and see, and then fiddle with the walls

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15 hours ago, Mark3D said:

the edge of that roof plane is off angle check its selected line  1 roof plane is over 90 and the other is under 90

@Mark3D is there a simple way you see this?

 

I spend a significant amount of time trying to pull the corner to get it to match both the vertical and horizontal lines of the plane, where it has to be exactly correct when I let go of the mouse. 

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@jasonN I sorta found a solution for the wall corner that had extra lines on the elevation view. For some reason, the attic wall on the gable has a "tail" that comes down on that corner. I simply selected that tail and dragged it back up flush with the bottom of the rest of the attic wall.

image.thumb.png.184f693c7116b099f067737edc32483a.pngimage.thumb.png.0f2ad0f21e45c0d10893b8a2d1cf8919.png

 

Also, I cleaned up the roof lines and upper roof trusses if you want to check out how I did it .

brIan wong addtion3 SIMPLE ROOFS - Fixed.plan.zip

 

If you look at elevation 5 that I added and saved, you'll see how I figured out the correct ridge height for that 3:12 section of roof. 

 

I wasn't able to get rid of a few gaps in the siding on the left side of the upper floor, but those won't be visible in your elevation views, so I left them. If you're sending 3D views to your client and they bother you, you could always cover them up with a polyline solid. The one on the corner is almost completely hidden if you add a corner trim to the siding, which I did.

image.thumb.png.24289674eb30fa3f00d6a8277b637da4.png

 

P.S.: You'll need to have a short 2x6 pony wall above the existing 2x4 wall on the left side, otherwise you'll have a 2" offset in the siding above the existing roof. I guess you could do 2x4 + 2" rigid foam as well.

image.thumb.png.6088be72b4ce0e05459c2c60997cfa0c.png

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thanks all, @solver, @levisL , I'll be taking a look tommorow at this, hopefully for the final time in preparation for the development permit submittal. The framing will be interesting on that one wall, as the floor will need to rest higher above the current top plate by 12"(they want a 9' floor where exisitng is 8'). Maybe hang the floor, or block under it the exisiting wall. ...for the engineer to figure out :)

 

 

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On 9/3/2021 at 3:47 PM, Mark3D said:

My guess is you have turned off one of your snaps and you are drawing of angle, you may have turned off by mistake and forgot

Yes , this was a problem. 

 

Thanks for the perpendicular tip @solver.

 

When I corrected the perpendicular and snapped per @LevisL the fascia lined up correctly

 

People are probably wondering how I got into this predicament. I think if I remember correctly, originally the addition was 8' ceilings, and when I auto build the roofs, it put in a weird hip in between. Then I went about about "fixing it", albeit poorly.

 

Another interesting tidbit. The odd looking corner for the siding in elevation view ONLY happens when I lift the roof off of the top plate to get an energy heel. If I build the roof with baseline at top of plate, it does not happen.

 

Thanks @LevisL for this tidbit:

OPEN LINE DBX AND LOOK AT Y POSITION FOR RIDGE HEIGHT

I can then get the lower point of the hip roof. But I'm not sure I understand the need to get the ridge height this way, as the Edit->preference-Architectural->Roofs->automatically place roof intersection points will place an x there for me. Or is this just another way to do it? Is there an advantage of this way or is it a preference?

 

Not sure how that tail got there ont he siding but it might have something to do with the framing as the tuss dbx shows some bizarre looking truss although the framing overview does not. nor does the truss detail

 

image.thumb.png.1cf613a4eb7534a5aceff4c4c2733342.pngimage.thumb.png.a4fc7380434c2f6662fffeffca6842b4.png

 

Thanks again, I appreciate it

 

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On 9/5/2021 at 8:19 PM, jasonN said:

Thanks @LevisL for this tidbit:

OPEN LINE DBX AND LOOK AT Y POSITION FOR RIDGE HEIGHT

I can then get the lower point of the hip roof. But I'm not sure I understand the need to get the ridge height this way, as the Edit->preference-Architectural->Roofs->automatically place roof intersection points will place an x there for me. Or is this just another way to do it? Is there an advantage of this way or is it a preference?

 

More than one way to skin a cat! Lol. I don't have those roof intersection points turned on. I find them misleading. Sure they'll tell you where two roof planes will intersect, but what if your heights on one plane aren't correct? Anyway, that's my personal opinion! 

 

In most cases when figuring out complex roofs, I usually start with the baseline and calculate the correct elevations from there up, but in certain cases, like your 3:12 overframe, it's just as easy to figure out where the ridge is supposed to be, and work down from that. That's the beauty of the radio buttons we have in the roof plane dbx for height/pitch. As long as you know one of the variables, you can lock it and have Chief figure out the other ones.

 

On 9/5/2021 at 8:19 PM, jasonN said:

Not sure how that tail got there ont he siding but it might have something to do with the framing as the tuss dbx shows some bizarre looking truss although the framing overview does not. nor does the truss detail

 

image.thumb.png.1cf613a4eb7534a5aceff4c4c2733342.png

 

 

In cases like this where a particular area generates an odd truss, sometimes it's easier to draw the truss in an area where it'll generate properly, then open the truss dbx and check 'Lock Truss Envelope and Webbing', then move/copy that truss to where you want it. Or manually adjust the truss envelope in a section view. I'll usually try to figure out why the truss isn't generating properly for a few minutes, but if I can't figure it out, I don't keep fighting it! Copy from another location or edit envelope and move on!

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This is a roof that you can get 95% there with auto roof tool by changing the bedroom area roof group to 1 then most off your problem are gone with off angles and just some minor manual roof work at the end 

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