HumbleChief

Real Time Ray Tracing in X13

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3 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

I assume the house had a roof and foundation on it so the light bleed up through the floor should not be there ( old PBR issue too)

 

Maybe there are still Issues in RT with Light bouncing of Glass ( photon/caustics? can't remember been quite a while since I did a RT )

and hence the Black Shower head etc.

 

M.

 

If these issues still exist as it appears they do then they should fix them, adding raytraced reflections to a compromised scene only results in a poor scene with reflections.

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30 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

If these issues still exist as it appears they do then they should fix them, adding raytraced reflections to a compromised scene only results in a poor scene with reflections.

 

Yep, no disagreement there for sure ...my hope is we were just looking at a very early Alpha Build , considering what RTX Cards can do in modern games with lighting and shadows etc.  Was kinda why I got a laptop with a 2070 Super after all....

 

M.

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3 hours ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

I think I'm one of those "some users". Yes I'm being critical because I know the renderer can do better than what they produced in their video. Given that this is a promotional video why would you not make it as good as it can be? The purpose of rendering is to generate beautiful scenes, the purpose of adding real time raytracing is to make those scenes even better. All of the generated scenes in the video had numerous deficiencies that in my opinion did not need to be there if a bit more attention to detail had been taken.

Agreed somewhat as I have as many or more questions about Chief's motives and methods than most on this forum. In my opinion your logic above makes total sense. Is that their best shot? Or just a quick reveal of speed increases? If it's the former, which I highly doubt, then sadness reigns throughout the kingdom. If it's the latter, then I will still keep my hopes up and my expectations low.

 

BTW we still have a roof and wall structure dbx when in a foundation 'room' defined as a concrete slab as if a slab would create a room at all, and that there might a roof over same, so Chief is capable of any kind of logical misstep that we all must learn to live with. Still hoping for a great render engine when all is said and done.

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44 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

I dropped x11 rental on count that I found out X9 was really just as good for kitchens!  Why pay support or worse, buy a new version of X13 for $3k?   I can continue to export my work and use far superior rendering tools!  That's fine with me.   Heck, almost wondering how much different their residential grade home design software is vs. the CA package?  If they don't have a professional render engine, and the majority of tools are in the econo version, what is the sell to interior designers on the pro version?

 

I don't even know where to start...honestly, I can't find the mental energy to even begin to break it down because there are so many little intricacies that come into play, but from the perspective of a professional kitchen and bath designer, a long time CA user, and a professional trainer, I can tell you this:

 

If you can't see any reason to upgrade then 95% of the time it's because you're either not learning the tools very well or you're not using them very efficiently.  When I'm hired to train, coach, or act as a consultant for a person or company using a Home Designer product line or an older version, I find myself almost constantly having to side note that there are much better ways to do this or that in X12 or that certain operations aren't even possible with their current version.  If you do this for a living, I really think you're missing out by not staying current.

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11 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

Can you tell me what I could improve by upgrading?

 

If I had the time or desire to do so?  Yes.  Do I have the time or desire?  No. I can't even find time for paying customers these days much less finding time to donate. Besides, I would really need to spend time exploring your unique needs and workflow.  Each user has different needs, but it has been my experience that the vast majority of users simply don't recognize all the areas where they're missing out or just doing things inefficiently. 

 

13 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

The key is 'long time CA user'.   I believe in exploring software and technologies.

That's a funny statement.  It's exactly this aversion to dedication that keeps anyone from ever mastering or fully realizing just about anything.

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By the way, just to be clear, I have no problem with exploring other software.  On the contrary, I have used many programs in my workflow as do plenty of other users just like me.  My statements were more geared toward our primary design software(s).  Failing to stay current means not only that you're missing out on the latest tools but also that you're falling behind on the learning curve.

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12 hours ago, Grumpka said:

I dropped x11 rental on count that I found out X9 was really just as good for kitchens!

 

As my primary focus is also kitchens I can understand this. Each time CA comes up for renewal I struggle as to whether or not it's worth it. Yes they do add new features but in the context of kitchen design they are rarely significant. Having used CA since X1 I have to admit that I'm having difficulty to identify improvements that have had any significant impact on my ability to design a kitchen. Please do not send me a list of all the new features since X1, I'm fully aware of them. It's not that they are not appreciated but what I find is when they add a feature they rarely refine it to be a "Wow". Yes it works but there's always some undesired limitation. Let's use a custom backsplash as an example, sounds great but you can't wrap it around inside or outside corners, if I have a counter that needs both back and side splashes I need to generate 3 separate elevations and draw it 3 times. Yes it automatically conforms to wall openings such as windows and doors, but not to wall or base cabinets so I have to do this primarily by eye to wrap around these items. It buries electrical items so I have to open them up and assign an offset. Great concept but with many limitations. Before this I could do the same thing with a polyline solid, it wont automatically respect door and window openings but with just a few breaks this can be accommodated and unlike the custom countertop, polyline solids respect snapping and if drawn in plan view it can be wrapped around inside and outside corners. So what really is this Custom Counter top feature, just a polyline solid minus some of the polylines function with the added ability to respect door and window openings. We now have two individual tools with limited functionality, it's like taking a cake, cutting it in half and now claiming you have two cakes. When I was in marketing we had a phrase for this type of approach, "Smoke & Mirrors".

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3 hours ago, Grumpka said:

CA is defaulted to work on openings PLUS the trims.  DBX asked for openings, not finished trims to trims.  This makes the simple task of inputting jobsite take-offs a major PITA!!!!

 

1) Learn to use temp dimensions

image.thumb.png.9a4871895fc9f9f0ba2f148acb90fc7a.png

2) use the correct template and dim defaults-OOB Kitchen template with NKBA defaults

 

image.thumb.png.c5a5f645138f3a86e6ff662af2761235.png

3) The kitchen and bath industry is broad, room for lots of approaches. Kind of what makes the world go round. My experience differs. When I was laid off in 2010  and went out on my own every dealer was falling over themselves getting in Chinese cabinets. I got two hi-end brands and built a business during the recession around repeat clients-builders, architects, interior designers who came to me because of the level of drawings supplied using Chief. I only ever produced better renderings toward the end of a job, long after it was a done deal and I had a retainer. (Note that I've owned Thea for over a decade, tried all of the freebies out there-I just don't need them for the clients I have) FWIW the majority of dealers I met who carried the same (most expensive) brand I carried use nothing but 2D ACAD. That brand requires full, well done floor plans and CAD drawings of any custom cabinet config, does not support 2020 or any other specific software. Chief made that easy for me. Prior to using CA I used 2020 combined with Envisioneer, TurboCad and Bluebeam PDF Revu. Chief replaced all of that and is faster and easier.

 

Obviously your approach works for you and you're passionate about it but maybe tone it down a bit.

 

Down votes? wasn't me, thought about it but I've never down voted a single person, won't start now. It appears you like the button though, at least there appear to be more of those than usual.

image.png

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3 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

 

1) Learn to use temp dimensions

image.thumb.png.9a4871895fc9f9f0ba2f148acb90fc7a.png

 

3 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

2) use the correct template and dim defaults-OOB Kitchen template with NKBA defaults

 

 

Pretty much my thoughts on those comments too along with simply setting the General Wall Default Resize About option to Inner surface in your Template.

 

image.thumb.png.5dd9b757b93be059dc35f0d10b100545.png

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I agree with what Mick and Mark both show above.  I do tons of as built plans for my clients where they are working off finished dimensions and have no issues with the way it is set up.  In fact I have several templates depending on what I am doing.  Have you tried using Chief's kitchen and bath template plan instead of the standard?  It might help.  Chief is a powerful program that is designed to work well for kitchen and bath as well as residential and light commercial architecture.  If you set up your template to work for your workflow the majority of your complaints above are actually nullified.  I am not saying chief is perfect but in my experience it is the best for my particular business workflow and is a powerful program.  I do see that you got quite a bit of downvotes above but I also noticed the tone in your posts appearing to be quite sarcastic and degrading to some real experts in the software over what you are perceiving as a software limitation but that appears just needs to be adjusted in your template or workflow process.

 

Anyways hop you have a better rest of your weekend! :)

 

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3 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

Specific to the temp dimensions,  you can't change the window width, just the space left and right.   Window width is locked into the Dialog box.  It goes by the opening, not the finished trim to trim. Teach me something please. love to hear I'm wrong and there is a way to spec windows and doors trim to trim.   

Select the window and specifically the side of the window you want to change, use your temporary dimension to resize it.

 

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5 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

Specific to the temp dimensions,  you can't change the window width, just the space left and right

image.thumb.png.28dba85f3d9852d675a197f86eafb69e.pngimage.thumb.png.8e843db40fba99f190bb9e11b9a4af43.png

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3 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

Hmm,  Well, I will have to go see what setting is wrong... I can't get the window size to change by clicking on the temp dimension.  Thanks though.  

 

Click on the windows side handle(s) ( at the Jamb)  not the middle handle ---seen in red in pic above....

 

M.

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Once you have seleced the window by the jamb, and placed your cursor over the windows temp dim size , the cursor should change to a hand, then click the dim, a small box will display indicating the current window dim, change it as reuired.

 

PS, you need to select the window and then select it again by the jamb.

Once you have selected it the second time by the jamb, the small grip will change into a large grip.

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3 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

I can drag is, but not select the dimension to enter a new size.  Appreciate the help.  

 

Not sure what you are doing as it works for me ..."play" a bit more perhaps....   here I placed two identical windows then clicked RH side of right window and changed its size to 44"

 

image.thumb.png.904a711377657e15385843bf3695d219.png

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Also, the window will change size depending on side of the window you click at the jamb.

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I can't blame Chief for moving forward supporting a tech that will become common in the future - even if its not today.  Real time ray tracing is the future.  Personally, I thought the demo they showed was overall pretty good as it related to the future of available rendering techniques.  Now that some here have pointed out issues with the renderings, I hope Chief does correct it.

 

That said, i'm disappointed thus far from what I see in other x13 update areas.  Its like the added check boxes on the roof layer/surface to add air gap etc when we always had the ability just to add an air gap layer.  Who is this designed for???...the non-professional?  There are many other issues i have, but this just highlights a particularly odd addition.

 

However you look at it, Chief is spending FAR more time on things that will sell new copies of their software to users that fit a target client which is not representative of my company, or many on this forum.  They seem to be developing in order to make big splashes in sales booths or youtube videos wherein a few clicks blows the audience away and they open their wallets to buy a copy or two imagining they will ride off into sunset and save thousands by not needing a design professional any longer.  The design professional needs better stair modeling tools, or generic solid modeling etc...not faster watercoloring renderings (again, as a for instance).  

 

My company has started a process of examining alternatives to Chief - and we're exploring ArchiCad in depth right now.  We may have 14 copes of X12-X13 to sell...who knows.

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45 minutes ago, johnny said:

Its like the added check boxes on the roof layer/surface to add air gap etc

 

I missed this ...from thurs.?  I missed this weeks presentation.....

 

does that mean we can now have two layers of Framing on a Roof ?  this has been asked for for years by those that need Roof  "Battens" or Purlins.

 

M.

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

Purlins

Were in the demo.

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roof fra

1 minute ago, MarkMc said:

Were in the demo.

roof framing webinar

 

12 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

I missed this ...from thurs.?  I missed this weeks presentation.....

 

does that mean we can now have two layers of Framing on a Roof ?  this has been asked for for years by those that need Roof  "Battens" or Purlins.

 

M.

 

 

yes

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16 minutes ago, Kbird1 said:

 

I missed this ...from thurs.?  I missed this weeks presentation.....

 

does that mean we can now have two layers of Framing on a Roof ?  this has been asked for for years by those that need Roof  "Battens" or Purlins.

 

M.

 

 

 

Yes, it was on the framing demo - but the part i am talking about isn't adding a framing layer - that is cool, I agree...but one could argue it didn't make a lot of sense that wasn't possible before being the fundamental parametric way Chief operates would have made this a simple addition.

 

Part of me is wondering if we can use this new layer to build cold/warm roof conditions or if its just setup to do purlins or skip-sheathing.

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51 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

Were in the demo.

 

Nice ! , I need to catch up on the Webinars Videos apparently....

 

M.

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7 hours ago, johnny said:

However you look at it, Chief is spending FAR more time on things that will sell new copies of their software to users that fit a target client which is not representative of my company, or many on this forum.  They seem to be developing in order to make big splashes in sales booths or youtube videos wherein a few clicks blows the audience away and they open their wallets to buy a copy or two imagining they will ride off into sunset and save thousands by not needing a design professional any longer.  The design professional needs better stair modeling tools, or generic solid modeling etc...not faster watercoloring renderings (again, as a for instance).  

 

I couldn't agree more. I'm fully aware from a sales/marketing perspective the competitive pressure and desire to introduce New and Exciting Features to gain attention and drive future sales. That's just marketing 101. What's really important when doing this is to ensure that these New and Exciting Features ultimately perform to users anticipated expectations. I will use real time raytracing as an example, within the industry this has been a highly talked about breakthrough technology, many users have seen those slick gaming demonstration videos and the spectacular reflections being attained. Though no fault of the average viewer, it's easy to conclude that the key to a truly realistic render is solely reliant on the ability to perform real time raytracing. What is lost in this is the fact that Real Time Raytracing is just raytracing, which has been around for decades, just done faster. As such, if in the past you could not create an acceptable raytrace you will still have the same problem, you will only see your unacceptable result faster, "Real Time" does not mean "Better Quality". The quality of a raytrace is determined by the interfacing GUI that provides the user with the tools needed to define/adjust lighting and materials and the skill of the user in making these adjustments. In CA's video they have demonstrated the Faster aspect, however I did not see anything that indicated an improvement in the Quality related GUI. I believe CA in their rush to have this New Feature is running a high risk of user disappointment, especially if a user rushes out and drops $1,000 on a high end video card under the belief that they can just rerun an old unacceptable raytrace and now see a spectacular photo realistic rendering. What makes the risk even greater is that by imparting this feature CA  has somewhat disenfranchised Apple(Mtac) users as only Windows users can potentially use this feature. Keep in mind that the real time raytracing feature has nothing to do with the need for CA to address the move away from Open GL Obviously only time will tell if the risk was worth it.

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My ears perked up when purlins got mentioned.

 

Does this mean we can have multiple framing layers in walls, the most obvious use being battens for rainscreen siding details?

 

 

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