Grumpka

Taboo Question, 'Fudge Dimensions'

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I know, I know, it's a naughty question.  I can feel the engineers, architects, and perfectionist cringe as soon as they saw the title of the question. 

So, I have to ask, can I 'fudge' a dimension 'text' ?   IE:  I want a center line of a window to the knee wall finished interior.   It should be 86, but I come up with 86 5/16" for 'whatever reason'.

 

Please, save any lectures, LOL, I know.  It's Wrong!  I'm just asking, as some of my measures need not be perfect and in some cases, I am happy to just fudge.  I'm not printing to scale, and just need to get the plan out the door.   

 

Thanks,


Steve

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Your questions is a bit confusing (at least to me lol) but are you wanting to dimension a window to the vertical CL of the Window from the top of a knee wall? The only way I think you could do it, is make a cad detail of the window, this add cad lines to the show the dimension from the knee wall or FFE and manually dimension it.  Let's see what the Guru's say.  BTW, posting the plan file usually helps with quick responses.

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16 minutes ago, Evolution said:

Your questions is a bit confusing (at least to me lol) but are you wanting to dimension a window to the vertical CL of the Window from the top of a knee wall? The only way I think you could do it, is make a cad detail of the window, this add cad lines to the show the dimension from the knee wall or FFE and manually dimension it.  Let's see what the Guru's say.  BTW, posting the plan file usually helps with quick responses.

Good Idea :)

 

plan.JPG

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Yes, you can "fudge" a dimension. Here are some of the ways to do it off the top of my head:

A) Make sure the dimension is snapping to the object and not a point marker. Select the wall or window, whichever you would like to move. If the dimension goes gray indicating it is connected to the selected object, click on the number and enter the desired dimension. This will move the selected object to the correct position.

b) Open the dimension dbx, go to primary format tab, and change the smallest fraction to 1/1, or whatever fraction applies to the number you want. That will get rid of or alter the fraction.

c) Type the dimension you want in a text box. Make sure the text size and style match those assigned to the dimension in question, and it has a solid fill. Put text over the dimension number. You can pull the edit handles on the text box to make sure it covers the other number properly. You can put the text box on the dimension layer to make sure it always displays regardless of the layer set that is on. If it displays behind the dimension change the drawing order for the text.

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1 minute ago, Chris_Kelly said:

Yes, you can "fudge" a dimension. Here are some of the ways to do it off the top of my head:

A) Make sure the dimension is snapping to the object and not a point marker. Select the wall or window, whichever you would like to move. If the dimension goes gray indicating it is connected to the selected object, click on the number and enter the desired dimension. This will move the selected object to the correct position.

b) Open the dimension dbx, go to primary format tab, and change the smallest fraction to 1/1, or whatever fraction applies to the number you want. That will get rid of or alter the fraction.

c) Type the dimension you want in a text box. Make sure the text size and style match those assigned to the dimension in question, and it has a solid fill. Put text over the dimension number. You can pull the edit handles on the text box to make sure it covers the other number properly. You can put the text box on the dimension layer to make sure it always displays regardless of the layer set that is on. If it displays behind the dimension change the drawing order for the text.

That's a breath full :)  Thank you though.  Normally, this isn't an issue, but sometimes you just need to force a dimension.   (well, me anyway, I'm not to proud to admit it).  I'm still learning the program and details such as getting the window, with the finished trim to sit exactly where I need it, is still a challenge.  While I'm learning, I need to make money and work.  So, FUDGE the text number of a dim line is what I need so I can move on. 

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Ya any of the options I gave will work for that. Though something to keep in mind when fudging rather than correcting the placement is that if you display the dimension in an elevation view it will also need to be changed.

 

With regards to placement of trim, keep in mind that you can also snap dimensions to the outside of the casing manually, or set the auto dimensions to snap to the casing (or opening centers) instead of the sides of the unit. That comes in handy for me sometimes.

 

Sometimes you just need to fudge it to save time, but for what its worth you will usually run into fewer problems down the line if you get the placement right in the first place.

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if you must, change the text size for that dim to 1/16" then place any number over it , then you won't have to re-size the new text.

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Thanks, guys!  I actually discovered a nice little cheat.   It's not really a cheat a such, but I can just use the manual dimension lines, and use the TAB key so I can give an exact dimension!  Who knew!  

Honestly, in Kitchen/Bath design, you should never be designed to the 1/16 or even 1/8"  The cabinets are NEVER build to that level of tolerance.  Same for appliances.  Framing?  LOL, Finished wall level?  So, it's funny, I'd think the reality of construction, everyone needs to fudge the numbers a bit.  This isn't precision machines work! ;)

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There is another way to put in a dimension by drawing a line with arrows at each end.  In the DBX there is the option to do that.   Sometimes this is used when dimensioning a family of parts were you want to put text in dimension lines.  Then put a text box on the line with fill turned on, and type whatever you like.  

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There is another way to put in a dimension by drawing a line with arrows at each end.  In the DBX there is the option to do that.   Sometimes this is used when dimensioning a family of parts were you want to put text in dimension lines.  Then put a text box on the line with fill turned on, and type whatever you like.  

 

Not that I want to advocate fudging your dimensions...but you can create a fake dimension line by adding a break to a simple line to make it a polyline, add arrowheads to both ends, and then put a label on it.  You can then get rid of the break using the new Simplify Polyline tool and it will still keep the label.

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45 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

Honestly, in Kitchen/Bath design, you should never be designed to the 1/16 or even 1/8"  The cabinets are NEVER build to that level of tolerance.  Same for appliances.  Framing?  LOL, Finished wall level?  So, it's funny, I'd think the reality of construction, everyone needs to fudge the numbers a bit.  This isn't precision machines work! ;)

 

My dimension defaults are all set so the smallest fraction is 1/2". I agree with you, I don't want to be designing to the 1/16", but if you set the program up properly you'll never see sixteenths.

 

So I don't need to "fudge the numbers." Everything always dimensions to the nearest whole inch or half-inch. One exception is when I need to dimension to the center of a 6x6 post, which being 5-1/2" is 2-3/4". I make an exception for that.

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Agreed. 1/4" accuracy is reasonable for most things in construction. Obviously, custom panels, appliance panels and the such will need precision accuracy.  I've realized the best solution thus far has been to enter the dimension line via TAB key method.  It's been doing the trick.  I do love all the other options though.  I'm sure I'll be needing to use them as well.  On to the next question...

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Brings back old memories..

Good old AutoCad allows U to 'Fudge Dimensions'... 

 

Always hated that feature. Worked with drawing and from some a>> hat who did it, on this pretty complicated part. 

Software does not color fake dimensions. Tolerances my, when you are asking to machine the part someone else designed. Two month later the shop tells you they can not manufacture it... You think this is a joke right? Wrong. They brought me a part that no workie. Had to go and reset every single dimension to figure it out.

  

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30 minutes ago, BrownTiger said:

Brings back old memories..

Good old AutoCad allows U to 'Fudge Dimensions'... 

 

Always hated that feature. Worked with drawing and from some a>> hat who did it, on this pretty complicated part. 

Software does not color fake dimensions. Tolerances my, when you are asking to machine the part someone else designed. Two month later the shop tells you they can not manufacture it... You think this is a joke right? Wrong. They brought me a part that no workie. Had to go and reset every single dimension to figure it out.

  

There you go, Autocad!  LOL.   Yes, that's where the word, fudged dimensions came from.   You can't fudge manufacturing shop drawings though.  You CAN fudge 1/16" or and 1/8" on centerlines and cabinet boxes.  I work for two large manufacturers of cabinets.  I have worked with and for over 20 lines over the past 3+ decades.  I can promise you, not one can make a cabinet to the 1/16" or 1/8" of an inch!  Not their fault though.  The raw material tolerances are never the same twice!  So, very silly for anyone to think fudging fractions matters on 99% of what we do in residential construction.  I'm lucky if architectural plans are even within a foot of what was spec'd!  If I ever order cabinets off residential home plans, nothing would ever fit right, despite 'accurate' dimensioning. That's reality! 

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11 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

I can promise you, not one can make a cabinet to the 1/16" or 1/8" of an inch!

Interesting because I have a couple of manufacturers that do exactly that.  I guess it just depends on the materials being used (and used properly) to minimize expansion and contraction.

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Just now, Joe_Carrick said:

Interesting because I have a couple of manufacturers that do exactly that.  I guess it just depends on the materials being used (and used properly) to minimize expansion and contraction.

Not saying I don't believe you, but you do realize even appliances don't measure accurately.  God bless you if every single cabinet measures exact.  That would be impressive.  Especially on frameless!  Near impossible unless they going to recalibrate for each sheet of material!

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Frameless will be a problem if using particle board since it's not dimensionally stable.  All the cabinets I use are Baltic Birch Plywood and the Doors and Drawer Fronts are frame construction.

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22 minutes ago, Joe_Carrick said:

Frameless will be a problem if using particle board since it's not dimensionally stable.  All the cabinets I use are Baltic Birch Plywood and the Doors and Drawer Fronts are frame construction.

 

Ah, face frame, yes, much easy to get the actual face frame correct, but wood moves.  So, what starts out accurate, won't stay that way once installed anyway.  :)

Plywood is actually far worse than particle board.  Domestic, or imported!  It's impossible to hold tolerance.  Anyway..  All academic.  Out on the job site, the end result is what matters, not how pretty and perfect our little plans are!

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I have one brand that works to 32nds, another that works to 16ths.

I disagree about frameless particle is more dimensionally accurate than the majority of plywood used and is as more stable-depending on the grade of particle board (there are many). The only time I ever had a problem with frameless was from a hi-end custom brand where we had frameless bases placed between inset talls and uppers for a display-the frameless run was 3/16" short over a 6 ft run.

That said both the above mfg use a ply that is dimensionally accurate for frameless. Over the years I'd put in upwards of 200 Brookhaven frameless kitchens-dimensions were spot on (remember we're dealing with an old pattern and modelmaker here-a real weaner)

 

Yeah appliances have a higher tolerance but except for a few hi end brands it runs to minus (though I've also run into Korean fridges where the sides bulged out 1/4" in the middle from the blown in insulation) Hand made farm sinks are another issue.

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I design to the 1/16"

 

but will display to the 1"

 

or 1/2" if really needed

 

unless it is a critical area then I use 16ths

 

Lew

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I think for wall dimensions, I'll stick to 1/2" rounding.  I still have to find a comfortable way to work with Chief as far as window placement.  Cabinets are fitt trim to trim, measures on jobsite are taken trim to trim.  Chief is defaulted to insert windows from center and sizing is around frame not finished trims.  I need to learn what options are there and better grasp how to insert windows into my plans...

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16 minutes ago, Grumpka said:

I think for wall dimensions, I'll stick to 1/2" rounding.  I still have to find a comfortable way to work with Chief as far as window placement.  Cabinets are fitt trim to trim, measures on jobsite are taken trim to trim.  Chief is defaulted to insert windows from center and sizing is around frame not finished trims.  I need to learn what options are there and better grasp how to insert windows into my plans...

 

Why do you need to round to the 1/2" for walls, just set them so they dimension properly. You can dimension to the outside of the windows trim to your adjacent cabinets and then use this to balance the window. I'm not a fan of rounding or fudging dimensions, the problem is that it can create a conflict when adding up individual dimensions and then comparing their total to the overall dimension. I think if you are concerned about site variances then it would be best to just add a note on your drawings to make the installer aware of these.

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12 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

Why do you need to round to the 1/2" for walls, just set them so they dimension properly. You can dimension to the outside of the windows trim to your adjacent cabinets and then use this to balance the window. I'm not a fan of rounding or fudging dimensions, the problem is that it can create a conflict when adding up individual dimensions and then comparing their total to the overall dimension. I think if you are concerned about site variances then it would be best to just add a note on your drawings to make the installer aware of these.

Well,  let me get to the main point here.  NKBA standards and frankly the last three and half decades of working in the cabinet industry, we all measure trim to trim.  Finished interior measurements, not frames, finished trims.  Also, cabinet installers do not scribe cabinets anymore.  (Well, VERY rarely)>  So, making cabinet too precise is a waste.   Showing 1/16" measurement will most likely piss off most installers, as there is nothing that perfect in the real world. Sure, a cabinet should have the exact measurements on it.  Of course.  However, when trying to go from a jobsite measure to CA, I find that I'm struggling to get simple precision.  I'm given wall to window trims, not wall to window frames and case sizes, reveal for trim, and so on.  So, I now have to spend needless time with details that don't matter to the sale of the project.  That's really the heart of the 'fudge comment'. 

Hope that clears up my original post.   

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I set mine to 1/4" b/c studs are 3 1/4" 0r 9 1/4" etc. when doing remodeling we need that kind of measurement.

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2 minutes ago, DRAWZILLA said:

I set mine to 1/4" b/c studs are 3 1/4" 0r 9 1/4" etc. when doing remodeling we need that kind of measurement.

1/4 is better than 1/16" :)  As I've clarified, my frustration and reason for fudging math were really about how CA places windows and doors.   I do stand behind the fact, if I'm selling a remodel kitchen, my involvement is the kitchen design, not the construction.  I"m preparing a cabinet order/cabinet installation plan.   1/4" is reasonable.  :)  Each to their own.  

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