Design custom furniture?

[TheKitchenAbode]

Let's apply my perspective to Chief.

 

Ignore all of the menus, tools and DBX's. If one breaks it down, every thing Chief does is based upon only one element, " A Straight Line" (Segment). The only properties you can change in respect to this Segment is it's length and it's X, Y and Z axis, that's it. All of those tools at the end of the day only affect those four Segment properties. There is no such thing as a circle or curve, these are just a multitude of very short straight Segments with slight variations in their X, Y, Z axis. Those 4 variables in conjunction with the ability to have many of those Segments are the only thing that determines whether something is a couch or a 45 storey building. You have a choice, you can see the things in Chief as Slabs, Counter Tops, Roofs, Windows, Etc  and therefore those the Menu, Tools and Names will define their application/use or, you can see everything as really being the same and you select the tool regardless of it's name that best allows you to manipulate those 4 attributes.

[yusuf-333]

Have modelled Johnny's basic sofa surface in a couple of minutes and if I proceed I am sure I will be close to that look, but I am not comparing Chief with 3d max by any means, just to show that we are not far from beating them soon if .....

 

I can see the way forward to easily mold the shape of soffa.

[johnny]

13 hours ago, glennw said:

I wouldn't contemplate it either.

Lets not forget that Chief wasn't designed or developed to draw free form furniture.

It was developed to design and document buildings.

I think that we should be thankful that we can at least draw basic furniture pieces as illustrated in the previous posts.

If you want to draw complex free form furniture, buy the appropriate software to do that and don't complain that Chief won't do something that it was never intended to do. 

 

I'm in full agreement Chief shouldn't be judged on its lack of ability to design furniture.  I'm just surprised so many think Chief's tools are adequate - and its concerning when that narrative is pushed out there as if Chief's 3d shape tools are somehow capable/practical for complex modeling.

 

Hands down Chief has some of the worse 3d shape modeling support of any program in this price range.  There are many free 3d shape apps that put Chief to shame in this category.  As Glenn points out there are other very powerful reasons to buy Chief, but if your focus is on furniture design (like the OP asked) Chief is a terrible option.

[TheKitchenAbode]

For Sale - One King sized mattress set with frame. "Manufactured by Chief Architect"

 

[MarkMc]

The actual question asked

"What I'd like to figure out is if there is a way to model case goods + cabinets, etcwithout having a room around it. "

 

Chief is perhaps the best software out there for case goods unless you need cut lists or to interact with CNC .

First you said "no" because of texture mapping, 2 of us provided solutions (and I answered his question.) 

 

Then it changes to upholstery. 

You're right, Chief isn't ideal that. Sure improvements in CAD and 3D would be nice (ran into a few unexpected quirks making that arch top)...I'd rather see improvements for stairs. Think if you took a poll the results would be similar. 

 

If someone needed to design upholstery or even chairs more than occasionally they should look elsewhere for software. If just as a reference for a client I find something and alter it.

 

The few times a year I come across needing more I use a pencil, just as when I built the stuff (but my concern then and now included connections thicknesses, that it can be done) maybe I'd also use 2D cad, maybe Chief and finally  hand it off to the maker. (the ones I know produce physical models). 

 

I think you can either complain or look for ways to get what you need. Look hard enough, think a little differently and it may be there. Invariably what is learned can be useful later (make a module of Seagram's curtain  wall with a cabinet . 

 

It's a hold over from my last line of work- "if you know someone who can do it don't call us", motto- "hey they built the pyramids with less" 

 Very nice Graham, what did you use?  

 

[johnny]

4 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

The actual question asked

"What I'd like to figure out is if there is a way to model case goods + cabinets, etcwithout having a room around it. "

 

Chief is perhaps the best software out there for case goods unless you need cut lists or to interact with CNC .

First you said "no" because of texture mapping, 2 of us provided solutions (and I answered his question.)

 

Then it changes to upholstery. 

You're right, Chief isn't ideal that. Sure improvements in CAD and 3D would be nice (ran into a few unexpected quirks making that arch top)...I'd rather see improvements for stairs. Think if you took a poll the results would be similar. 

 

If someone needed to design upholstery or even chairs more than occasionally they should look elsewhere for software. If just as a reference for a client I find something and alter it.

 

The few times a year I come across needing more I use a pencil, just as when I built the stuff (but my concern then and now included connections thicknesses, that it can be done) maybe I'd also use 2D cad, maybe Chief and finally  hand it off to the maker. (the ones I know produce physical models). 

 

I think you can either complain or look for ways to get what you need. Look hard enough, think a little differently and it may be there. Invariably what is learned can be useful later (make a module of Seagram's curtain  wall with a cabinet . 

 

It's a hold over from my last line of work- "if you know someone who can do it don't call us", motto- "hey they built the pyramids with less" 

 Very nice Graham, what did you use?  

 

 

Mark, the OP said " I design a fair amount of custom furniture, primarily conference tables, consoles, benches, sofa and cocktail tables, etc " - so the comment was based upon the original OP discussion, and I broke out my initial answer in those 2 parts.

 

If you think you guys answered the mapping issue - I would wholly disagree.  You've only offered a crazy work-around which then limits future editing - not to mention, creating sub-faces does hold answers for radial shapes....which furniture is filled with.  Face-by-face modeling of 3d surfaces was available by one of the first DOS based 3D apps made available in the 1990's - and yet some claim that is somehow the flagship answer to Chief's modeling solution.

 

I think the conversation gravitated to upholstery since I used a couple examples of simple furniture modeling - which upholstery is a big deal in furniture design - after suggestions Chief is just fine for furniture design.

 

My goal here is to simply counter the cool-aid drinking Chief apologist, so there is no confusion just how bad some of Chief's tools are.  Solid modeling tools are ridiculously bad in Chief by any reasonable, current, comparable 3D modeling standards.

[johnny]

32 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

For Sale - One King sized mattress set with frame. "Manufactured by Chief Architect"

 

 

I agree that is pretty good for Chief.  Though you and i know why you decided to do this on a flat non-undulating surface....right?  Do you think you could reasonably apply this to a piece of furniture like a sofa?

 

[MarkMc]

My answer was not face by face mapping and I have no problem with getting it consistently accurate or altering parts. 

Corrections, I always have the correct overall grain direction for wood members. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

3 minutes ago, johnny said:

 

I agree that is pretty good for Chief.  Though you and i know why you decided to do this on a flat non-undulating surface....right?  Do you think you could reasonably apply this to a piece of furniture like a sofa?

 

 

Sorry, no the surface is not flat, the variations are physical. No pre done models were used other than the bun feet, was short on time. Other than that it was built from scratch using the tools in Chief. No tricks.

[johnny]

50 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

My answer was not face by face mapping and I have no problem with getting it consistently accurate or altering parts. 

Corrections, I always have the correct overall grain direction for wood members. 

 

I'm curious then, since I went back and read your post.  How is it you get different surfaces on a solid object to start with?

[MarkMc]

I use separate parts, more or less as I would build it, with different textures in the proper direction. If I start with a single piece, copy paste in place, alter to isolate members.  

 

Once converted you can change textures individually. Have original plans saved, parts in library, between the two alterations are quick. 

[johnny]

21 minutes ago, MarkMc said:

I use separate parts, more or less as I would build it, with different textures in the proper direction. If I start with a single piece, copy paste in place, alter to isolate members.  

 

Once converted you can change textures individually. Have original plans saved, parts in library, between the two alterations are quick. 

 

I certainly can see that working (and even semi-practically) for straight edge, flat stock items with multiple parts.  I dont see that practically working for more complex shapes, or even basic shapes made of 1 solid, since in Chief you can't re-shape solids without doing some sort of Boolean operation or converting to faces. 

 

 

[yusuf-333]

Here is my go with roofs, and a 3 isteps in create symbol wizard, the process went through moldings, windows again molding. Also can save parts to apply different texitures.

This is just  first trial in no time. Again I never said I am comparing chief with 3dmax in generic 3d modelling tools, but it isn't the the software that matters. even if you are using 3d max, Your imaginations are more inportant than the tools of the software.

Not perfect, but you can see the surface I posted in above post is used here.

[johnny]

14 minutes ago, yusuf-333 said:

Here is my go with roofs, and a 3 isteps in create symbol wizard, the process went through moldings, windows again molding. Also can save parts to apply different texitures.

This is just  first trial in no time. Again I never said I am comparing chief with 3dmax in generic 3d modelling tools, but it isn't the the software that matters. even if you are using 3d max, Your imaginations are more inportant than the tools of the software.

Not perfect, but you can see the surface I posted in above post is used here.

 

Very creative method Yusuf - but you'd have to admit to bring it all the way home to a completed couch would be very difficult in Chief.

 

So everyone knows I am not trying to suggest Chief should have 3D shape tools like 3dMax - that would be way overkill.  I am also not suggesting Chief needs to be good at designing furniture.

 

I'm arguing against any notion that Chief's shape tools are adequate as they are.  For some reason Chief has neglected this tool-set and we are stuck with 90's style shape editing.  I get frustrated when I go to model even simple objects and am met with unnecessary complexity and limitation.  In fact, I bet 3D shape modeling abilities in Chief haven't changed much since early versions of the application - not that I know that for sure.  Just a guess.

 

 

 

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

29 minutes ago, johnny said:

 

I certainly can see that working (and even semi-practically) for straight edge, flat stock items with multiple parts.  I dont see that practically working for more complex shapes, or even basic shapes made of 1 solid, since in Chief you can't re-shape solids without doing some sort of Boolean operation or converting to faces. 

 

 

 

No solids used in my mattress, did not work with individual faces, it's not a photo overlay, did not import anything. All of the wrinkles are real, they are not an illusion. Textures and colours can be changed by simply using the spray painter tool, the model can be easily resized. I just used the standard tools in Chief. You can easily go into the model and adjust all elements at any time.

[MarkMc]

38 minutes ago, johnny said:

 

I certainly can see that working (and even semi-practically) for straight edge, flat stock items with multiple parts.  I dont see that practically working for more complex shapes, or even basic shapes made of 1 solid, since in Chief you can't re-shape solids without doing some sort of Boolean operation or converting to faces. 

 

 

In wood even complex shapes are most often built from straight pieces, it helps to know how that will be done IRL. 

[TheKitchenAbode]

One more example. This demonstrates that what is needed to 3D model is already in Chief. All they really need to do is create a Tool Set designed to provide an intuitive way to access and control this capability. If this was done we would be able to easily create our own couches, pillows or whatever without having to rely on other software or SketchUp models. 

 

[johnny]

31 minutes ago, TheKitchenAbode said:

One more example. This demonstrates that what is needed to 3D model is already in Chief. All they really need to do is create a Tool Set designed to provide an intuitive way to access and control this capability. If this was done we would be able to easily create our own couches, pillows or whatever without having to rely on other software or SketchUp models. 

 

 

Yes, I fully agree Chief already has the backbone to do almost any sort of modeling it wants - its the tools we lack to adequately control the modeling process in a precise and fluid way.

 

 

 

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

19 minutes ago, johnny said:

 

Yes, I fully agree Chief already has the backbone to do almost any sort of modeling it wants - its the tools we lack to adequately control the modeling process in a precise and fluid way.

 

 

 

The tools are there. You just have to ignore the nomenclature. As an example, lets say Chief did not have a tool named "Custom Counter Top", does that mean I can't have a custom counter top. Not at all, I could just substitute with a Polyline Solid, a Slab, a Box or even an Extruded Face. It would only take about 2 seconds to adapt to the fact that the tool I have to use is not named "Custom Counter Top".

[johnny]

Just now, TheKitchenAbode said:

 

The tools are there. You just have to ignore the nomenclature. As an example, lets say Chief did not have a tool named "Custom Counter Top", does that mean I can't have a custom counter top. Not at all, I could just substitute with a Polyline Solid, a Slab, a Box or even an Extruded Face. It would only take about 2 seconds to adapt to the fact that the tool I have have to use is not named "Custom Counter Top".

 

That sort of modeling is just fine in other apps that allow "counter-tops" to interact with solid shapes or have modifiers that interact as if it was a standard 3d shape.  In Chief no such ability exists.  This means only within the confines of the tools ability does Chief allow use of one object to substitute for another.

 

i.e. you can use counter-tops to make columns, but you could never use what you could model with the countertop tool to its fullest and get anything but a block of slab when you convert to solid.  It doesn't retain all the modelings for instance....which is a real shame.

 

Graham, I have no idea what your background is.  However, if you think Chief is a good shape modeling tool I would advise you to try out some other tools and then come back and give me your assessment.  Hell, at it stands now I cannot model a poly solid in 1 view and switch to another view to refine edit that shape.  Poly solids can only be edited in the view which they were created.  Further, you get crazy instability if you make, and group poly solids not all made in the same view.  The list goes on and on....

 

[TheKitchenAbode]

Johnny - I fully appreciate the point(s) you are making. And of course, if my work was predominantly 3D modeling of objects I would certainly not use or recommend Chief. My point is not that Chief is or has 100% 3D object modeling capabilities, it's that for the majority of Chief users modeling needs it can be done and it's not as difficult as one may think. It all depends upon the depth of 3D modeling that one requires. I'm not going to spend $1,000's of dollars on a dedicated 3D object modeling program for those rare instances where I might need to make a custom pillow; especially when I can already do that in Chief.

 

[yusuf-333]

22 hours ago, johnny said:

 

Very creative method Yusuf - but you'd have to admit to bring it all the way home to a completed couch would be very difficult in Chief.

 

So everyone knows I am not trying to suggest Chief should have 3D shape tools like 3dMax - that would be way overkill.  I am also not suggesting Chief needs to be good at designing furniture.

 

I'm arguing against any notion that Chief's shape tools are adequate as they are.  For some reason Chief has neglected this tool-set and we are stuck with 90's style shape editing.  I get frustrated when I go to model even simple objects and am met with unnecessary complexity and limitation.  In fact, I bet 3D shape modeling abilities in Chief haven't changed much since early versions of the application - not that I know that for sure.  Just a guess.

 

 

 

 

Yeah Johnny.
I wasn't actually in disagreement with the obvious limitations of chief's capability regarding the basic 3d modelling tools, and ofcourse very poor generic 3d modelling tools.

I think little improvements in the areas of molding line tools in profiling and pattern creation could be a big time saviour and help chief to step up and keep doubling it's reputation regarding automating most of the building elements + additional 3d modelling capabilities without applying a very bulk tools that could also have its own implication some how on their targetted market.. I don't know but you wouldn't be so courageous to master learning the room paradigm and those automations if you had an alternative manual tools to accomplish the tasks. And of course chiefs main objecyive is to make a difference by reducing the modeing time ans making the software more and more intelligent to do the job for us. I think they have done great job regarding automation. Yet, at this stage not being able to draw a cube and edit it in all views makes no sense at all!!

I will make a video when I get time regarding the use of molding lines and surface profiling.I will share very good tips and tricks. Will also try to suggest few improvements that could step up chief's modelling capacity by Milion times without adding a lot of complexities to the software tools.

Thanks

[glennw]

8 hours ago, johnny said:

Poly solids can only be edited in the view which they were created. 

 

Johnny,

I think that statement is a bit of an exaggeration?

For sure you are limited in that if you draw a polysolid in plan, you can't drag its width in an elevation view (although you can drag it's height and elevation - as well as use the dbx)..

BUT in an elevation view, you can use the dbx to change the polysolid.

In a 3D view, you can shape and edit the polysolid in just about any way you want with the cursor and/or the dbx. 

[Alaskan_Son]

I have to say I'm with Johnny on this.  I too use Chief to model some pretty complex geometry and while I can agree that it's about learning to use the various tools and features outside their named/intended purpose but quite honestly even then, the tools can be very limiting and certain geometry can be extremely time consuming to model.  I would actually go so far as to say there is a lot of geometry I would consider totally impossible for all except the most advanced, mathematically minded, spacially thinking users.  Even then...the results can be very rigid, lumpy, or otherwise flawed or simply unrealistic looking.  

 

At the the end of the day we have to pick and choose our battles.  There is a lot of complex geometry I don't mind taking a little time to produce in Chief but if we're talking about any sort of organic shapes, free form modeling, upholstery, anything with waves, etc...then the results are totally not worth the effort IMO.  You're better off either finding a symbol that's close enough, making it in another app, or paying someone to make it for you in another app.  

[TheKitchenAbode]

The original poster asked if any users could provide advice on how to use Chief to accomplish furniture type modeling, they did not ask if Chief was the perfect program for 3D Modeling. I Myself have responded appropriately to this question, yes there are ways to do this in Chief, here are some tips and examples and here are some of the known pitfalls. Unfortunately this discussion has warped into one focused on whether Chief has the functional and intuitive capabilities of a dedicated 3D modeling program. This aspect does not require any discussion at all, of course Chief does not have that level of capability, this fact however is not relevant to the posters question. If I were to take this approach then the next time someone asks about formatting text using the Rich Text function I will jump right in, focus on it's limitations and expound on the virtues of Microsoft Word.