How To Drop a Single Room's Ceiling Height Two Story Building


HumbleChief
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5 minutes ago, dshall said:

 

Well,  I am not sure if that is what I am doing or what Perry is doing or what Jerry is doing or what Jon is doing.  I think we are all adding the framing to the ceiling finish and not to the ceiling structure and not to the floor assembly.  I do not think anybody is creating a floor above the room....  there is already a floor at the second floor.

Yes you are right, no one has suggested this method. I was responding to the question as to how that framing detail came about.

 

..and you cannot add framing to the ceiling structure...or at least I couldn't and get it to show up anywhere. You can see how I got there, again, if you can make it through the posted video. Not that I recommend the method.

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I'm saying for sure, but in some cases

2 minutes ago, HumbleChief said:

Yes you are right, no one has suggested this method. I was responding to the question as to how that framing detail came about.

 

..and you cannot add framing to the ceiling structure...or at least I couldn't and get it to show up anywhere.

I know sometimes I had to force "rebuild framing" even though it might already be checked.

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2 minutes ago, justmejerry said:

The ceiling structure DBX only comes into play on your upper most ceiling structure.

Yes! Never really knew that nor does the he!! box (structural dbx) give even the slightest clue that's true; nor does any Chief instructions or help suggest that dbx has no effect on a first floor room's ceiling structure (why the $%^# is it even there on a 2 story build?

 

Once you know it you know it but finding out takes a lot of trial error and work. STILL hate that crap structure dbx and the more I learn the worse it gets. Unless of course "you know how Chief works..." which is a crap excuse to keep that thing in a program as mature as Chief. [/rant]

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48 minutes ago, justmejerry said:

I like to do it the way Scott does it. This way frames properly and doesn't alter any walls it attaches to. With a ceiling plane your wall plates on adjoining walls will drop to accommodate ceiling. Ceiling plane you do not get framing for ridge and sub fascia so only what would be dropped joists frames. Ceiling finish gives you framing all around, albeit doubled.

Untitled 2.jpg

 

Wrong, it will work without lowering the wall if you don't extend the ceiling plane line beyond the wall surface

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1 hour ago, dshall said:

 

That is not so.  It will frame auto.....  however I will admit it is difficult to control the direction of the dropped ceiling joists.

 

Screen Shot 2017-01-07 at 11.00.18 AM.png

 

I haven't found this to be the case.  What I have found impossible to control though is the label of the joist direction line...

 

Plan view.jpgCross section.jpgCross section 2.jpg3D framing.jpg

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5 minutes ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I haven't found this to be the case.  What I have found impossible to control though is the label of the joists direction line...

 

Plan view.jpgCross section.jpgCross section 2.jpg3D framing.jpg

It automatically draws framing in at the shortest span if that makes sense. This would be the way most would frame this however there could be a dbx perhaps like on decks where we could set direction. 

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4 minutes ago, justmejerry said:

It automatically draws framing in at the shortest span if that makes sense. This would be the way most would frame this however there could be a dbx perhaps like on decks where we could set direction. 

 

That was my point.  We already can set the direction.

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Scott gave the correct answer back in post #3 by making the point that you don't use Ceiling Structure - you use Ceiling Finish with a framing layer.

 

Dropped Ceilings and Raised Floors

The structure of a dropped, or suspended, ceiling can be specified in the Ceiling Finish Definition dialog either for a room or the defaults for a floor. SeeFloor and Ceiling Platform Definitions.

To create a framed dropped ceiling

1. Select a room and click the Open Object edit button.

2. On the Structure panel of the Room Specification dialog, click the Ceiling Finish button. See Structure Panel.

3. In the Ceiling Finish Definition dialog:

• Specify Layer 1 as the plenum space.

• Specify Layer 2 as the horizontal framing. Framing member spacing and width are set in the material definition. See Define Material Dialog.

• Specify Layer 3 as the drywall.

• Specify Layer 4 as the paint color.

A dropped ceiling composed of a metal grid requires only two layers: one for the plenum and one for the tiles.

 

and also it is worth remembering:

Quote

 

Ceiling and floor heights are interrelated. Changing the floor height in one room can affect ceiling heights of the rooms below.

• If a room’s floor is lowered, its ceiling height is increased while the ceiling below that room drops.

• If the floor is raised, the ceiling height decreases while the ceiling below that room is raised.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, glennw said:

Scott gave the correct answer back in post #3 by making the point that you don't use Ceiling Structure - you use Ceiling Finish with a framing layer.

 

Dropped Ceilings and Raised Floors

The structure of a dropped, or suspended, ceiling can be specified in the Ceiling Finish Definition dialog either for a room or the defaults for a floor. SeeFloor and Ceiling Platform Definitions.

To create a framed dropped ceiling

1. Select a room and click the Open Object edit button.

2. On the Structure panel of the Room Specification dialog, click the Ceiling Finish button. See Structure Panel.

3. In the Ceiling Finish Definition dialog:

• Specify Layer 1 as the plenum space.

• Specify Layer 2 as the horizontal framing. Framing member spacing and width are set in the material definition. See Define Material Dialog.

• Specify Layer 3 as the drywall.

• Specify Layer 4 as the paint color.

A dropped ceiling composed of a metal grid requires only two layers: one for the plenum and one for the tiles.

 

and also it is worth remembering:

 

Always helpful Glenn, Scott thanks very much.

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2 hours ago, justmejerry said:

Just a little slow here. Now I see what you were getting at(I think) Joist direction line works but shows floor framing in label not the ceiling material. Weird that it controls one and labels the other.

 

I would call that a bug.

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2 hours ago, Alaskan_Son said:

 

I haven't found this to be the case.  What I have found impossible to control though is the label of the joist direction line...

 

Plan view.jpgCross section.jpgCross section 2.jpg3D framing.jpg

 

Michael,  if this was so,  it is good news.  I think what you are implying is that you can specify the floor joist direction independent of ceiling joist direction.  If that is what you are saying,  can you show a pic of the ceiling joist framed in northwest direction and the floor joist in northeast direction.  IOW,  the CJ are perpendicular to FJ,  and they are at 45 degree angle to the walls.

 

if you are able to do that,  did you use two joist direction arrows and how did you define one arrow as controlling CJ direction and how did you define the other arrow as defining direction of FJ direction.

 

 

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18 hours ago, dshall said:

 

Michael,  if this was so,  it is good news.  I think what you are implying is that you can specify the floor joist direction independent of ceiling joist direction.  If that is what you are saying,  can you show a pic of the ceiling joist framed in northwest direction and the floor joist in northeast direction.  IOW,  the CJ are perpendicular to FJ,  and they are at 45 degree angle to the walls.

 

if you are able to do that,  did you use two joist direction arrows and how did you define one arrow as controlling CJ direction and how did you define the other arrow as defining direction of FJ direction.

 

 

 

I thought I already showed that except that they weren't at an off angle.  How's this...

Diagonal joists.jpg

 

Diagonal floor joists.plan

 

Yes, I just used 2 joists direction arrows.  Check out the plan.  Its a little tricky sometimes and it may not always work because I think it requires both joist direction lines be placed over different rooms (even if it's just a very small area)...

Example.jpg

 

P.S.  It seems to work best if you define the larger main floor first.  Just make sure to place the joist direction line outside of the dropped ceiling room. Place the joist direction line for the dropped ceiling area second.  After initial placement you can the readjust as necessary.

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21 minutes ago, glennw said:

Michael,

 

I think we use different methods.

My way:

http://screencast.com/t/OYLlNqF6YXS

 

.

 

 

Slightly different order but same basic process.  I just built my framing first and then placed the joist direction lines.  You placed your joist direction lines and then built framing.  The biggest difference is that I had auto framing turned on.  Whether it was intentional or not though, you bring up a very good point.  If auto framing is turned off and we build one then the other, we no longer need to place the second joist direction in a different room...

Multi-directional framing.jpg

Multi-directional framing.plan

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Michael,

 

I'm not sure if you are aware, but you can open up the Joist Direction Specification dbx that controls the ceiling joists and change the spacing and depth there and those values are reflected in the Joist Direction arrow label.

But it's a bit weird because when you build the ceiling joists, the ceiling joist spacing obeys the setting in the Joist Direction Specification dbx, but it doesn't obey the joist size. 

The joist size comes from the room ceiling default.

 

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8 minutes ago, glennw said:

Michael,

 

I'm not sure if you are aware, but you can open up the Joist Direction Specification dbx and change the spacing and depth there and those values are reflected in the Joist Direction arrow.

 

Yes, I am aware.  See if you can make the joist direction arrow match your dropped ceiling material though.

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